For the most part, I agree what you wrote. Fortunately, my wife didn't belong to any social media mother's groups, so we didn't have all of that external pressure on us.
I think item 4 is the one that is most frustrating for me. My wife and her mother are both wonderful people, but they were never a 12 year old boy doing idiotic 12 year old boy things. They just don't get it.
I think there is just way, way more pressure on moms with regard to being a parent. When I would take my kids to the grocery store as infants, I would get compliments and praise for being such an amazing dad even if the kids were fussy and grubby. In the same situation, my wife would receive boatloads of unsolicited advice and negative vibes. As a result, she would probably seem to an outsider like an uptight mom, changing clothes and cleaning kids for a trip to the store, but that was the feedback loop.
I also experienced that curious double standard. I received compliments as a father out with my always well-behaved kids that I'm pretty sure mothers wouldn't.
The other assumptions: that mothers are the primary caregiver. I was my kids' primary caregiver most years. That when fathers are responsible for their kids, my care would be referred to as babysitting, not parenting.
One of my favourite activities was to take my kids and some friends out on PD days (weekdays when school is out) to museums. Chances are there would be at least 2 distinct shades of skin, yet the kids were of similar age. I would invariably get asked if all the kids were mine, usually by a senior. I would reply: "2 girlfriends", just to enjoy the brief, shocked reaction.
I don't know if I fully believe this about the criticism and perceived slights because in my experience most moms are ridiculously sensitive to statements and way to prone to take offhand comments or advice meant to be helpful as judgment/criticism. I do agree that dads get admiration simply for not being deadbeats (because a lot of them ARE deadbeats) but a lot of moms are also exquisitely oversensitive to this kind of stuff. I work with some moms who DNGAF and will just declare that they and their kids suck and make a joke of it, and no one cares and if anything finds them more likeable. It's not like people are gossiping about them being bad moms. I think you have to kind of buy into and care about that kind of thing for it to actually happen. And honestly I have never in my life heard someone talk about another mom for being neglectful or whatever...when people talk bad about moms it's ALWAYS in the other direction about them being a helicopter mom. So I'm not sure I really buy the supposed pressure bc it seems self imposed, at least in large part.
What youтАЩre describing is not egalitarianism. In fact, basically 100% of those moms complain constantly that they have to make every single decision and their husband basically just follows them around like an extra child. ItтАЩs tough to believe men who are like тАШactually IтАЩm very risk tolerant and believe in the value of gritтАЩ when theyтАЩre totally unwilling to stick their necks out in family decision making and just go along to get along.
Many men (and some women) have learned the wrong lessons from feminism and the increasing power of women: that they are not allowed to have an opinion on a traditionally female-dominated area like childrearing, lest he act the overbearing male, inserting his opinion into what women know better.
I think people aren't very logically consistent, though. From observing family members who have this dynamic, it's true that she's sick of being the parent in charge and making all the decisions, but it's also true that she gets mad and pulls rank when he does speak up. And also true that he rarely speaks up and needs to grow a spine. They both reinforce the pattern and they both hate it.
Oh, 100%. IтАЩm definitely not claiming that the mothers in these types of relationships are just as much to blame for this vicious circle. I only find it ironic when fathers are like тАЬthe neuroticism of my family life is entirely my wifeтАЩs fault.тАЭ ItтАЩs like тАЬlol, see what you did there.?тАЭ And, of course, this makes it so much worse, because if an already neurotic parent knows that EVERYTHING is their responsibility, that they will have to take the heat alone for any false move, then they become a lot worse.
Many of these men тАШgo along to get alongтАЩ because their wives hold the whole family hostage with their emotions, refusing to be civil until they get their own way. Perpetuating the myth of fathers as these bumbling Homer SimpsonтАЩs that donтАЩt care about how their children are raised is just as ridiculous as portraying women as faultless angel mothers who must nail themselves to the cross of motherhood every time they pack a lunch or drive their kids to school. Real life answers are more complex than that.
I can personally remember my parents having a few arguments that broke along these lines - my Mom concerned my brother and I were in danger, and my Dad concerned we were going to grow up to be weak cowards (he used a more colorful term) if we were babied.
I think this is spot on, though I will say the ONLY reason for the gender imbalance here is social conditioning. I'm sure that is what you mean, but it really is why women tend to be the bigger helicopter here. Women are also more likely to reduce employment or stay at home when kids are young, what do you do with that time? It is consumed with the needs of your kids and you seek out people who are in the same boat.
I disagree here ..women go through profound hormonal changes when they give birth and it literally rewires their brains. Not so much for dads. Women also simply have more negative emotions (anxiety etc) than men...this is well studied. Testosterone is a mood booster. Women are actually simply more likely to experience more worry, fear, and anxiety...on a biological basis bc of their hormones and wiring, when faced with the same circumstances as men, and it's not social conditioning. I used to go to a bodybuilding gym (I wasn't one but most there were), they all took testosterone, and the women besides growing huge muscles and getting lower voices would all talk about how different their emotions and interests and drives became.
Plus I'm just witnessed way too many women, like my sister, who were once free spirited, assertive, confident and independent turn into completely different people after they had a kid...worried, obsessive, anxious...and then revert back to their old personality once the kid was 17 or so. The dads personalities didn't change that much, they adjusted to the new lifestyle but didn't seem like almost different people.
You bring up some interesting points, and I will say maybe my last comment was too strictlI would love to see studies that show that this is 100% due to biological reasons and not at all due to social conditioning. Anxiety can absolutely worsen with social conditioning. We put so much pressure on mothers and far less on fathers, even in this modern era, there is no way that does not factor significantly into how people behave. As for the "brain rewiring" thing, the studies like the one in Nature suggest it does occur after preganancy but it only lasts for about 2 years. Look, I'm not suggesting that hormones don't play a role into our overall well-being, and women do experience fluctuations during their menstrual cycle, so yes, you do have a point. That being said, it sounds like your sister just wasn't as carefree as she outwardly seemed. I'm speaking from experience. People think I am very confident, assertive, etc. But I have experienced a lot of anxiety internally most of my life. Treatment has helped, but I know it is something I have to combat when it comes to raising kids.
Oh I'm definitely not arguing that NONE of it is social conditioning or social norms/pressure. Just that I think it's both and it's sort of a self reinforcing cycle.
In other words, for example, if women collectively decided they wanted to try to end this (and I do think most of the social pressure comes from other women or even their own moms) they would have to make a concerted effort to work somewhat against their "default" tendencies, in the same way one has to work against say their natural tendencies to overeat for example. I think for men they could much more easily decide to stop this behavior and it wouldn't be that hard for them, or require them to overcome biological/wired in tendencies.
The extra energy and enhanced mood/optimism that testosterone provides is really unfair and not talked about enough. You would have to give men some type of depressant that made them have 20% less energy or lower moods for them to experience what it's like for women. This all used to be common knowledge and the science supports it, but we've all somehow forgotten what is fairly obvious and common sense, bc we all want to believe in gender equality. I mean, you COULD pretty easily give men that experience, as it's what happens if they take estrogen.
Nature didn't make women the same as men because if it did, way too many babies and young kids would die (judging by the not-small portion of men who are perfectly fine with abandoning or neglecting their own kids, absent serious social pressure and penalties).
This is all spot on. I recently complained to my brother that I'm the parent generally in favor of discipline and letting negative consequences play out (putting me firmly in least-favorite parent status.) He was like, no shit you're the guy, it's usually like that.
We both live in hyper-progressive areas and know a lot of wives that out earn husbands, etc, so I was surprised to learn how sticky these roles are.
Luckily my wife and I both are too lazy to really land on the worst of this parenting style.
Joseph Campbell noted it. That all successful cultures had this process of mother's child, father's child and then adult. And those cultures that skipped any of these steps ended up with adult age children that never develop adequate self-sufficiency.
I think it is clear that the change to western society that put women in charge has resulted in the middle piece going away.
So that means that half of Gen X never developed sufficiency, since absentee fathering was the norm. But, people are resilient, and so this seem rigid in a quasi-spiritual kind of way.
Being a Gen-X latchkey kid to a working single mother meant the middle part wasnтАЩt тАЬmotherтАЩs childтАЭ per se. My particular case was also that my mom wasnтАЩt the super cuddly type; IтАЩm pretty happy how it turned out.
Our son just turned 5, and is in Kindergarten because he was born right on the cutoff date, and *man* is this playing out right now: MomтАЩs group on Facebook; incredibly long list of vitamin supplements; frustration at me if I donтАЩt give an opinion, shooting me down if I do.
I don't know why it would be a cancellable opinion...this is almost 100% about moms, not dads. I don't see how anyone could even refute that with a straight face.
Dads simply don't care that much what other people think about their parenting. Mom's do. Dads also don't sacrifice as much of their emotional and physical health to have kids, so there's not as much resentment, frustration, guilt, and anxiety all bound up in the whole thing that leads to crazy behavior.
I love and have empathy for my mom friends and siblings, but honestly they are almost all semi insufferable to be around and I've just gotten used to waiting it out til their kids are older and they become sane again. Even the ones who KNOW all the things Freddie talks about in this piece and think of themselves as the "sane" ones...aren't. They're extremist germophobes who think they need to sanitize their floors daily (probably creating some of those allergies with their excessive sanitization), or they're ridiculously wrapped up in every tiny minor emotional reaction from their kid, or they're unbelievably sensitive to the slightest whiff of a possible implied slight or criticism of their kid. Many of them actually seem borderline crazy (and didn't before they had kids).
For the most part the only moms I can stand to be around are the ones too busy with their full time plus jobs to be like this. It's the privileged stay at home or part time/easy job moms that are the worst with this, by far.
As a suburban, coastal mom in the thick of it, this is SO TRUE.
I have one more observation to add, and that is that a lot of suburban moms are women who used to have high powered careers and either quit or massively scaled back. These are women who have never not been overachieving. For the first time in their lives they are not getting accolades.
All that intense Girl Boss energy and professional insecurity needs somewhere to go.
For the most part, I agree what you wrote. Fortunately, my wife didn't belong to any social media mother's groups, so we didn't have all of that external pressure on us.
I think item 4 is the one that is most frustrating for me. My wife and her mother are both wonderful people, but they were never a 12 year old boy doing idiotic 12 year old boy things. They just don't get it.
I think there is just way, way more pressure on moms with regard to being a parent. When I would take my kids to the grocery store as infants, I would get compliments and praise for being such an amazing dad even if the kids were fussy and grubby. In the same situation, my wife would receive boatloads of unsolicited advice and negative vibes. As a result, she would probably seem to an outsider like an uptight mom, changing clothes and cleaning kids for a trip to the store, but that was the feedback loop.
I also experienced that curious double standard. I received compliments as a father out with my always well-behaved kids that I'm pretty sure mothers wouldn't.
The other assumptions: that mothers are the primary caregiver. I was my kids' primary caregiver most years. That when fathers are responsible for their kids, my care would be referred to as babysitting, not parenting.
One of my favourite activities was to take my kids and some friends out on PD days (weekdays when school is out) to museums. Chances are there would be at least 2 distinct shades of skin, yet the kids were of similar age. I would invariably get asked if all the kids were mine, usually by a senior. I would reply: "2 girlfriends", just to enjoy the brief, shocked reaction.
On some level that just feels downstream of social pressure being a stronger force in women's lives across basically all domains.
I don't know if I fully believe this about the criticism and perceived slights because in my experience most moms are ridiculously sensitive to statements and way to prone to take offhand comments or advice meant to be helpful as judgment/criticism. I do agree that dads get admiration simply for not being deadbeats (because a lot of them ARE deadbeats) but a lot of moms are also exquisitely oversensitive to this kind of stuff. I work with some moms who DNGAF and will just declare that they and their kids suck and make a joke of it, and no one cares and if anything finds them more likeable. It's not like people are gossiping about them being bad moms. I think you have to kind of buy into and care about that kind of thing for it to actually happen. And honestly I have never in my life heard someone talk about another mom for being neglectful or whatever...when people talk bad about moms it's ALWAYS in the other direction about them being a helicopter mom. So I'm not sure I really buy the supposed pressure bc it seems self imposed, at least in large part.
What youтАЩre describing is not egalitarianism. In fact, basically 100% of those moms complain constantly that they have to make every single decision and their husband basically just follows them around like an extra child. ItтАЩs tough to believe men who are like тАШactually IтАЩm very risk tolerant and believe in the value of gritтАЩ when theyтАЩre totally unwilling to stick their necks out in family decision making and just go along to get along.
He said it was inegalitarian, didn't he?
Many men (and some women) have learned the wrong lessons from feminism and the increasing power of women: that they are not allowed to have an opinion on a traditionally female-dominated area like childrearing, lest he act the overbearing male, inserting his opinion into what women know better.
I think people aren't very logically consistent, though. From observing family members who have this dynamic, it's true that she's sick of being the parent in charge and making all the decisions, but it's also true that she gets mad and pulls rank when he does speak up. And also true that he rarely speaks up and needs to grow a spine. They both reinforce the pattern and they both hate it.
Oh, 100%. IтАЩm definitely not claiming that the mothers in these types of relationships are just as much to blame for this vicious circle. I only find it ironic when fathers are like тАЬthe neuroticism of my family life is entirely my wifeтАЩs fault.тАЭ ItтАЩs like тАЬlol, see what you did there.?тАЭ And, of course, this makes it so much worse, because if an already neurotic parent knows that EVERYTHING is their responsibility, that they will have to take the heat alone for any false move, then they become a lot worse.
Many of these men тАШgo along to get alongтАЩ because their wives hold the whole family hostage with their emotions, refusing to be civil until they get their own way. Perpetuating the myth of fathers as these bumbling Homer SimpsonтАЩs that donтАЩt care about how their children are raised is just as ridiculous as portraying women as faultless angel mothers who must nail themselves to the cross of motherhood every time they pack a lunch or drive their kids to school. Real life answers are more complex than that.
I can personally remember my parents having a few arguments that broke along these lines - my Mom concerned my brother and I were in danger, and my Dad concerned we were going to grow up to be weak cowards (he used a more colorful term) if we were babied.
I think this is spot on, though I will say the ONLY reason for the gender imbalance here is social conditioning. I'm sure that is what you mean, but it really is why women tend to be the bigger helicopter here. Women are also more likely to reduce employment or stay at home when kids are young, what do you do with that time? It is consumed with the needs of your kids and you seek out people who are in the same boat.
I disagree here ..women go through profound hormonal changes when they give birth and it literally rewires their brains. Not so much for dads. Women also simply have more negative emotions (anxiety etc) than men...this is well studied. Testosterone is a mood booster. Women are actually simply more likely to experience more worry, fear, and anxiety...on a biological basis bc of their hormones and wiring, when faced with the same circumstances as men, and it's not social conditioning. I used to go to a bodybuilding gym (I wasn't one but most there were), they all took testosterone, and the women besides growing huge muscles and getting lower voices would all talk about how different their emotions and interests and drives became.
Plus I'm just witnessed way too many women, like my sister, who were once free spirited, assertive, confident and independent turn into completely different people after they had a kid...worried, obsessive, anxious...and then revert back to their old personality once the kid was 17 or so. The dads personalities didn't change that much, they adjusted to the new lifestyle but didn't seem like almost different people.
You bring up some interesting points, and I will say maybe my last comment was too strictlI would love to see studies that show that this is 100% due to biological reasons and not at all due to social conditioning. Anxiety can absolutely worsen with social conditioning. We put so much pressure on mothers and far less on fathers, even in this modern era, there is no way that does not factor significantly into how people behave. As for the "brain rewiring" thing, the studies like the one in Nature suggest it does occur after preganancy but it only lasts for about 2 years. Look, I'm not suggesting that hormones don't play a role into our overall well-being, and women do experience fluctuations during their menstrual cycle, so yes, you do have a point. That being said, it sounds like your sister just wasn't as carefree as she outwardly seemed. I'm speaking from experience. People think I am very confident, assertive, etc. But I have experienced a lot of anxiety internally most of my life. Treatment has helped, but I know it is something I have to combat when it comes to raising kids.
Oh I'm definitely not arguing that NONE of it is social conditioning or social norms/pressure. Just that I think it's both and it's sort of a self reinforcing cycle.
In other words, for example, if women collectively decided they wanted to try to end this (and I do think most of the social pressure comes from other women or even their own moms) they would have to make a concerted effort to work somewhat against their "default" tendencies, in the same way one has to work against say their natural tendencies to overeat for example. I think for men they could much more easily decide to stop this behavior and it wouldn't be that hard for them, or require them to overcome biological/wired in tendencies.
The extra energy and enhanced mood/optimism that testosterone provides is really unfair and not talked about enough. You would have to give men some type of depressant that made them have 20% less energy or lower moods for them to experience what it's like for women. This all used to be common knowledge and the science supports it, but we've all somehow forgotten what is fairly obvious and common sense, bc we all want to believe in gender equality. I mean, you COULD pretty easily give men that experience, as it's what happens if they take estrogen.
Nature didn't make women the same as men because if it did, way too many babies and young kids would die (judging by the not-small portion of men who are perfectly fine with abandoning or neglecting their own kids, absent serious social pressure and penalties).
These are interesting points, but it doesn't jive with my expectation that, in the past, most child rearing was done by women.
Like, I don't think 1950s moms were arguing grades with teachers.
This is all spot on. I recently complained to my brother that I'm the parent generally in favor of discipline and letting negative consequences play out (putting me firmly in least-favorite parent status.) He was like, no shit you're the guy, it's usually like that.
We both live in hyper-progressive areas and know a lot of wives that out earn husbands, etc, so I was surprised to learn how sticky these roles are.
Luckily my wife and I both are too lazy to really land on the worst of this parenting style.
Joseph Campbell noted it. That all successful cultures had this process of mother's child, father's child and then adult. And those cultures that skipped any of these steps ended up with adult age children that never develop adequate self-sufficiency.
I think it is clear that the change to western society that put women in charge has resulted in the middle piece going away.
So that means that half of Gen X never developed sufficiency, since absentee fathering was the norm. But, people are resilient, and so this seem rigid in a quasi-spiritual kind of way.
Being a Gen-X latchkey kid to a working single mother meant the middle part wasnтАЩt тАЬmotherтАЩs childтАЭ per se. My particular case was also that my mom wasnтАЩt the super cuddly type; IтАЩm pretty happy how it turned out.
Our son just turned 5, and is in Kindergarten because he was born right on the cutoff date, and *man* is this playing out right now: MomтАЩs group on Facebook; incredibly long list of vitamin supplements; frustration at me if I donтАЩt give an opinion, shooting me down if I do.
I don't know why it would be a cancellable opinion...this is almost 100% about moms, not dads. I don't see how anyone could even refute that with a straight face.
Dads simply don't care that much what other people think about their parenting. Mom's do. Dads also don't sacrifice as much of their emotional and physical health to have kids, so there's not as much resentment, frustration, guilt, and anxiety all bound up in the whole thing that leads to crazy behavior.
I love and have empathy for my mom friends and siblings, but honestly they are almost all semi insufferable to be around and I've just gotten used to waiting it out til their kids are older and they become sane again. Even the ones who KNOW all the things Freddie talks about in this piece and think of themselves as the "sane" ones...aren't. They're extremist germophobes who think they need to sanitize their floors daily (probably creating some of those allergies with their excessive sanitization), or they're ridiculously wrapped up in every tiny minor emotional reaction from their kid, or they're unbelievably sensitive to the slightest whiff of a possible implied slight or criticism of their kid. Many of them actually seem borderline crazy (and didn't before they had kids).
For the most part the only moms I can stand to be around are the ones too busy with their full time plus jobs to be like this. It's the privileged stay at home or part time/easy job moms that are the worst with this, by far.
As a suburban, coastal mom in the thick of it, this is SO TRUE.
I have one more observation to add, and that is that a lot of suburban moms are women who used to have high powered careers and either quit or massively scaled back. These are women who have never not been overachieving. For the first time in their lives they are not getting accolades.
All that intense Girl Boss energy and professional insecurity needs somewhere to go.