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Whatever you say Freddie, but personally I think getting a beer with Mark Rippetoe would be cool as hell.

Regarding the rest of the post, I don’t necessarily disagree but you didn’t delineate between powerlifting and other kinds of lifting philosophies. Brosplits and whatnot are tactics but if it’s bodybuilding people are after then they need to just sign up for my free consultation and buy my book and I’ll set them on the right path. Please like and subscribe for more details.

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I belong to beachbodyondemand.com, and lately I've been doing LIIFT 4. I really like it; a typical week is like this:

Mon: Chest/Triceps

Tue: Back/Biceps

Wed: Rest

Thurs: Shoulders

Fri: Legs

Weekends: Off (or stretching)

All four days have cardio and core (abs) exercises mixed in too, so it constantly keeps you changing things up. And programs like this are a Godsend during the pandemic, where you can work out at home.

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I've been looking to try this one. It's my friend's favorite BB program to develop muscle. Now enjoying in studio classes but I'm thinking of trying Lift 4 this fall.

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Great post. I also wish more people would point out that hypertrophy is more dependent on genetics than anything else. Basically any program "works," especially for new lifters. Just do whatever program you enjoy most and can stick to and you will get something like 80% of the gains of an optimal program unless what you're doing is incredibly stupid.

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I mentioned protein timing arguments in this post, and it's like - yeah, if you're Dwayne Johnson and you're huge and have a whole training team and are lifting for very specific effects related to how you make money, you should probably worry about protein timing. But even particularly dedicated and fit amateurs just aren't going to see much difference either way!

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I agree with "any program works."

I have to say, I have yet to see any good evidence for the effect of genetics. Possible? Absolutely. Probable? Absolutely. But I am contractually obligated to fence sit until the evidence comes in.

We had one guy on our team who everyone agreed was genetically gifted. He was very strong and set records at relatively low bodyweight. But the truth was his lifts had increased at the same rate as anyone else, but he did his first lift at the age of fifteen. You look at someone like Greg Nuckols, and he's been basically lifting since leaving the womb.

We have plenty of evidence that there are what you could call "inherent" factors that affect how you gain strength. Some people react differently to lifting weights, and that's just the way it is. But is it due a genetic difference, i.e., to alternate alleles? Is it heritable?

Or could it be that one person hiked with their parents when they were a kid, and the other sat at home watching TV? Did one play basketball on the weekends? Did one eat a healthier diet with more protein? Did one get more sun than the other? By the time most people start lifting, the body has has almost two decades of living that will influence the rest of your life. Humans are very complicated.

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Since you mentioned Nuckols, here's his take (which I think supports my claim).

https://www.strongerbyscience.com/genetics/

And Mike Israetel's typically pithy take:

https://youtu.be/zWKik5b53Es?t=70

Since you mentioned heritability a quick search shows many studies estimating heritability of different strength measurements at 50-60%.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18271028/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27882617/

The important point I was trying to make here is that by the time you decide to lift weights, a good deal of the outcome is not under your control.

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To me, the most obvious difference from genes may be your frame - how your muscularskeletal setup makes your muscles appear. Some guys are big, strong, and very dedicated lifters but don't look "big" to others because of their frame.

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Yes, and additionally, as the poster above points out in his own post, limb ratios also affect your ability on certain lifts, oftentimes with tradeoffs to other lifts...e.g. arm length on deadlifts vs bench.

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I think you're both right. About limb size, my point is rather that it matters because the lifts we have decided to use as markers of strength, and this is rather arbitrary. If we normalized the height from which to deadlift, e.g., everything changes.

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I had read Nuckols' article, but I wasn't familiar with those studies; they seem to support that genetics do play a role, but these things are often subtle.

But ultimately this is an academic question. Whether it's genetic, based on past behavior, based on what your mom ate while you were in the womb, or astrology, the point is that there's no changing it, so it shakes out to be the same.

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Yes, the fundamental point does stay the same.

I take your point that humans are complicated and assigning causalityto any piece of the puzzle is very hard. I do often wonder if I had not seen my body as merely vessel to carry around my head until I decided to get fit at age 24 I would have had better results.

That having been said, it strains credulity to imagine that if Big Ramy had lived my exact lifestyle and diet up until 24, he wouldn't have still been a total freak.

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I think the controversy potential of "how to workout" is secondary only to "what to eat" on the Internet. Luckily, just like with nutrition, the fundamentals have stayed the same for a pretty long time. Inexperienced people just starting by jumping on a trend might not know it, but the reality is - again, same as in nutrition - that EVERYTHING works if it's the right thing FOR YOU. And if one is a beginner, I think one should definitely stick to the basics at first. Calisthenics and veganism? Sure, but I doubt you'll be getting great results if you don't know what macronutrients and micronutrients are (true story). If the trend in lifting culture is back to classic lifts, I personally think this will do less harm to a novice than other fads like crossfit, kettlebell workouts, etc.

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I mean, it depends. The simple fact of the matter is that squats and deadlifts, and to a lesser extent bench press, a) are highly technical and easy to do wrong and b) invite people to put on enough weight that one wrong movement can cause serious long-term injury. Can you use kettlebells like a dumbass and get hurt? Sure. Can you have bad pushup form and jeopardize your shoulders? Sure. But there's a special temptation for someone to deadlift once, say "hey this is easy!", throw 225 on a bar and then get a herniated disc that debilitates them for months thanks to a single bad pull. I'm not opposed to these exercises at all, but I do think tha it's madness how many personal trainers think that squats and deadlifts are a day-one must do for a 50 year old who's never lifted before. Even if you're sure people should deadlift, why not start with rack pulls for a few months? Just bad injury calculus, to me.

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Interesting time in my fitness life to read this. I did strongman/powerlifting at a specialty gym I used to live near and I got very strong but I didn’t look any better because I ate like crazy. Carrying 400 lb yokes and calorie deficits do not match, at least for me. I also tweaked my back a few times, not trying to hit a max but just during normal sets, which I’ll chalk up to fatigue. These tweaks affected my day to day life (standing,sitting, etc.) more negatively than it was improved by lifting heavily.

When the pandemic hit and I couldn’t go to that gym any longer I picked up some kettlebells which I enjoyed but got a little tired of because it wasn’t my “idea” of lifting. When the local gym (a YMCA) felt safe I went back but eventually realized a place with no deadlift platform and one squat rack and bench was not going to make a powerlifting program anything more than a pain in the ass to program- I don’t have two hours to spend in the gym waiting for space. Stopped renewing my membership and ordered a set of adjustable dumbbells and a folding bench, and I now don’t have to wait for anyone but myself and can pursue a program more dedicated to aesthetics than trying to move as much weight as possible.

I’m never going to make lifting a career or try to become a fitness influencer, and I realized it’s a bit pointless to try and program to hit a new 1RM when I’m not competing. Instead, I can do what people have done in their garage or rec room for decades and been fine with- working out with moderate weight and higher reps, getting some better muscle tone, and looking better for myself and my partner as opposed to having a “power belly” for a log clean and press that no one will ever give a shit about. It’s not likely someone will have a home gym with different bars and a combination of plates to allow them to really hit 1000lb+ totals. A lot of people are healthy and look good working out regularly with lighter weights and eating well and just walking, and I think that’s more than enough to offset my big fear of all the time sitting at a desk. I’ll likely look better and feel better working with 50lb adjustable dbs than I did deadlifting reps at 405, and there’s a lot less chance I’ll be hobbling around from a tweak.

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Ha ha, ironic. I woke up, didn’t want to roll out of bed & hit the gym quite yet, and thought I’d read a couple pieces from my Substack Reader instead.

It’s absurd but I had no idea weightlifting had such an online presence. Did I assume the Internet was good for baseball statistics, politics, and other nerdier pursuits? Maybe.

Hadn’t heard the name before but I guess I do bro splits, along with getting in as many aerobic workouts on the stationary bicycle as possible too. It works! In my early-30s I found myself gaining weight; at a certain point being a male waif is less likely to attract girls than it once was. I would also see pictures of myself and wonder who I was fooling.

It’s a weird place where I’m at now. I am slender and people tend to assume I’m unathletic but I can bench at least 225. Like Freddie wrote, it’s silly to go above certain weights in certain lifting pursuits, and cripes deadlifting looks like it’s just asking for an accident. Plus after enough time you hear nasty stories from older guys who tore something while lifting, benching, etc.

It’s also a tricky balance wanting to see gains while simultaneously having no desire to invest in a new wardrobe.

Anyway, appreciate the post, as a teacher I appreciated yesterday’s on education funding, and I appreciate that this is a Substack that can address both.

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Doing the big three is easily the best "fad" to ever happen to exercise. God I wish I had the resources I have today when I started as a teen. I wasted so much time on bullshit. 15 years of progress would have taken me 3 years if someone had just given me a barbell. Yes, some people don't properly align programming with their goals, but I have a hard time being anything other than enthusiastic that the next generation is learning the main lifts.

I don't have a 40inch vertical. Calisthenics aren't going to do that much for us regular people. The big three will. My other gripe is the strongest people in the world giving advice to amateurs. It rarely applies to us. Robert Oberst's take on deadlifting is as useful to me as Pavorotti explaining the bel canto. I just want to do a passable Karma Police.

I did enjoy the post though, and like seeing this different type of stuff.

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I’m a 45 year old man who just started power lifting (with an extremely qualified coach; no idea why he’s even deigning to work with the likes of me), and it’s funny: I have very little idea of why I’m doing it. I know I’ve been wanting to get stronger for a while, but I don’t know why.

I also got into scotch in 2015 or so. No idea why.

Now I’ve finished my scotch and am trying not to get more. Don’t know why I’m not refilling my stores.

Do you think it’s important for me to know why I do these things?

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Oh yeah I started opera singing last year. I’ve gotten really good at it! But I don’t know why I started. I don’t even listen to opera.

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Dear WCP - that’s fascinating! I imagine the lifting, scotch, singing served or are serving you in some way. I’m intensely curious! In my experience we bring things into our lives when they fulfill a need and then let them go (hopefully) when that need is no longer there or when something else/better meets that desire in a different/better way. Do these activities produce a certain feeling in you when you engage in them? Or perhaps there’s a ritual or routine surrounding the activities that resonates for you? Of course this is none of my business so please feel free to ignore! All the best with your singing, lifting, and scotch (should you decide to replenish your stores 🙂).

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So, in each case, I just found myself with an urge to start or stop the activity. After getting the urge, I sometimes decided to try to analyze why I thought I was having it, but I've become skeptical of my ability to accurately analyze such things.

In the case of singing, my mom was an opera singer, and she had been encouraging me for years to get lessons. During the lockdown, I just decided to buckle down and do it. I think it was because I was hoping it would relieve stress, and I finally had some more free time to devote to it? In any case, I think the main reason I *continue* to do it is that I've gotten good at it, I feel good after I do it, and it allows me to better appreciate the things I liked and didn't like about particular opera singers' performances (I tend to evaluate only those songs that I'm also singing).

In the case of scotch, I'm pretty lost as to why I started. I think I started because I had a concept of a professor as a tweedy Brit who smoked a pipe and drank scotch. I couldn't really figure out how to smoke a pipe (not that I tried) but I thought i could figure out how to do scotch. As for why I've tapered off, I'm pretty confused. I mean, I've heard more and more that alcohol is just really bad for you, in just about any amount. I haven't actually investigated how, but I've heard that. And it does seem to make it harder for me to sleep, and it also makes me sleepy, and it was becoming more of a crutch (that said, when I'm stressed and home for the night, it's the only thing I can do that relieves stress). Plus, my brother-in-law recently died from alcoholism (I think you'll think I've buried the lede, but I really don't think that was the main factor in my decision; I could be wrong).

Finally, with weight-lifting, I was feeling myself getting weaker and weaker around the house, just doing stuff. And it was getting too hot to jog, so I wanted a different source of exercise. And although I had tried weight-lifting in the past, my gains were always too slow, and none of the trainers I had seemed any good at training me in weight-lifting. By contrast, my current trainer was, at one point, a big-time coach, so I trust that he's very good at his job. And frankly, I just have more money now, so I can afford stuff like this now (though it turns out to be cheaper than any trainer I've had in the past, go figure).

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Thanks so much for your reply! It was delightful to read :) This really landed for me: "I've become skeptical of my ability to accurately analyze such things."

I've been so deep in processing my mental & emotional landscape for 30 years that I've gotten really good at answering why I'm thinking/doing a thing, and I've unearthed a lot of bullshit that wasn't serving me or others.

But I suspect I may overdo this. The aforementioned bullshit caused me enormous suffering, so I'm committed to paying attention to what I'm getting up to and interrupting internal narratives that are not true, unhelpful, or injurious to my relationships with others. It can be a real slog, though. The idea of just being - responding to my desires intuitively based on current circumstances and available resources - is very appealing.

So, I am reminded here to be skeptical about my ability to 'accurately analyze', particularly around assigning too much importance to "getting it right" and expending energy that is in short supply in service of that goal.

Thanks again :)

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No, but I think it's important for you to know what you aren't doing them to serve abstractions or the opinions of people who aren't paying attention to you.

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Ah good, that’s helpful.

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I'm a powerlifter and I agree completely. I compete in meets, and I'm in the upper third according to openpowerlifting. It is a very bizarre sport, as strange and artificial as boxing. Think about it: Everyone uses SBD knee sleeves sized down two sizes. Why? They're about as thick as is allowed at raw comps and puts a few kg on your squat. And if you have very good back flexibility, as some former gymnasts do, your bench distance can be all of two inches. The sport is full of "tricks" like this. Limb proportion matters a lot. Add to this the amount of psychological preparation before your lifts, proper snacking between lifts, and the sport becomes about much much more than being "strong," whatever that word means. So the idea that it is "meat and potatoes" or "old school" is ridiculous—In fact, I hadn't ever heard this before. Nevertheless, I can see why it's taken off as lately, and why I think this is in general a healthy turn for meatheads everywhere.

The biggest reason I powerlift is because, to quote Marge Simpson, I’ve dug myself into a happy little rut here and I don’t want to hoist myself out of it. I'm also a scientist so I chase numbers like Corgies herd. Nothing gives me more pleasure than plotting, calculating, fitting, etc. I think this gives it a lot of its appeal as well. We live in the age of metrics, and powerlifting loves metrics. Powerlifting instagram comments are alphanumeric soup like "3x5 140kg @ 6!"

Along with olympic lifting, it's also as close to a sport as lifting gets. I love the camaraderie. I love when you go hit a PR and your gym buds spot you and encourage you. Lifting at a meet is electrifying. You get to be an athlete. And treating it like a sport seems to shift the psychic energy from vanity and self-obsession to healthy competition, fun, and "feeling strong." This means a lot to some people. Of course, you get the "looking good" as a side benefit while pretending is not important; hypocritical, yes, but that's your audience.

And I think we need to appreciate what powerlifting has done to the gender balance in the weight room. The powerlifting team at my gym is just about half women. I've been lifting for just over ten years, and the number of women whom I see lifting has increased dramatically. Anecdotally, I have two women friends who struggled with their weight, eating, and the constant pressure to be skinny. They've both found powerlifting. They appreciate an environment that emphasizes being strong as opposed to looking frail and cute, and where men and women do the same lifts and we compete at the same meets.

The sort of "vanity" exercises of yore were strictly gender segregated. Men did curls and shoulder presses. Women did pelvic thrusts, little curls with pink barbells, and then an hour doing cardio, lest they get "too bulky." I think this kind of thing naturally struck many women as demeaning, and one sees their point.

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Yes at all the gender stuff! And while plenty of women lift for vanity, because having a thicc booty in your Gymshark leggings is in right now, that's a lot better than "do exercise and don't eat in order to shrink yourself to look as frail and waify as possible."

I personally lift because I dig it when my grandma calls me "her strong girl" and beckons me to move her heavy soup pots full of hot liquid. A thicc booty is a nice side benefit, though.

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I tell ya, I don't lift and don't know anything about lifting and don't particularly want to know anything about lifting but I can read an entire FdB article about lifting and stay interested.

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Relevant Ginny Hogan joke:

“Thank god exercise makes you hotter. If all it did was improve your health, boost your mood, increase your longevity, prevent physical pain, and help your sleep, I’d never do it.”

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Hey, I'm the Art of Manliness guy. Long-time reader (and paying subscriber for a few weeks!) Enjoy your work. One of the reasons I love your newsletter is how eclectic it is. Never thought I'd see an article about weightlifting after an article about education spending in America.

Any-hoo, I agree with this article. I'd say there was a time in my life when I thought there was a "one true way" to exercise and that way was benching, pressing, deadlifting, and squatting. It was likely due to the zeal of a new convert.

Now, my philosophy towards exercise is do what you enjoy because you're more likely to stay consistent with your exercise if you actually like it and being consistent is key to getting the benefits from exercise. I wrote about that here: https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/motivation-over-discipline/

(Also did a podcast with a psychologist about making exercise a habit and she said the same thing. The benefits of exercise come with long-term consistency, so do the exercise that you enjoy: https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/make-exercise-a-sustainable-habit/)

I love lifting weights. It's my favorite thing to do which is why I've been able to be so consistent with it for 6+ years and hit some PRs I never imagined I'd be able to hit.

I imagine runners who have been consistent for years would say the same thing.

I still encourage people to try "old school lifting" because it's something I enjoy and it's natural to share what you enjoy with other people. But if they don't like it or like something else better, I'd encourage them to lean into that. There's more than one way to skin the fitness cat.

My own training is changing as I get older and it's changing so I can continue to enjoy lifting. I pulled 585 a few weeks ago and afterwards I thought "Man, I don't know if I enjoy pulling that heavy anymore. That felt pretty bad."

So my training is changing. I'm still doing the main lifts, but at higher volume and lower weight. Doing some bodybuilder stuff too because it's fun.

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now you've gone and made me have to update the post

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So great to see Brett reply. I’m a long time reader of both AoM and Freddie’s... and I ain’t no “bro.” As the best of us hope to do AoM has evolved in to a very thoughtful and at times very intellectual website for men, or anybody who rejects the idea of toxic masculinity. When I share something from the website I always write something like “yeah yeah, I know the name seems bro-ish, but I promise you it’s not.”

Also, it’s just like Brett to respond in a positive way, ignoring Freddie’s snide “lol.”

Anyways, for anyone seeing this I do want to point out that AoM is not about 6 pack abs or scoring chicks. It highlights great men of history and their ethos. From the Admiral Stockdale’s to masculine hero Teddy Roosevelt, to ancient wisdom across all civilizations. It’s about celebrating accomplishment however small. And yes, there is a lot of “old school” wisdom, but it’s more a rejection of faddish thought than declaring any one true path. It’s also one of the very few places I go online that is pure. It’s about building character and never about tearing anything down. Though I enjoy what Ryan Holiday has done for Stoicism, his politics and SJ beliefs are evident. Outside of his Catholicism I don’t know a damn thing about Brett. He’s not trying to dictate any one way I SHOULD think. He offers ways men of great achievement have thought and how they did it then let’s the reader or listener decide. Freddie, you probably like Jesse Singal (as do I!!!)... listen to Brett’s pod with him and see what a curious and thoughtful individual he is.

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Appreciate the plug for AoM!

Oh, I've got a sense of humor about the name of my website. While I've been trying to bring back a more positive idea of what "manliness" means, I understand why people would find it silly at first blush.

Also, I'm not Catholic. :) (One of my favorite games to watch over the years has been "Guess Brett's religious and political affiliation.")

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I can’t imagine opening the newsletter to see your work referenced in this way, especially when it’s usually not about exercise at all. It’s really cool that you were a good sport about it. 🙂

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You’re not Catholic?!! I guess in hindsight when talking to Catholics you never do talk about Catholicism, just your faith. I just assumed. Interesting. Well, enjoy eternal damnation! Ha. That further highlights my appreciation of your ambiguity when it comes to what works best.

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Now I’m wondering if you ever say MY faith or you just discuss faith in general.

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Here's a hint: he did two years of "service" as a young adult.

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Ahhh...compulsory service IDF. I read you loud and clear.

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Great post, and --

"... and has an opinion on whether the supinated hand on a mixed grip threatens the biceps."

Hilarious.

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Great post, at 56 I still swear by the big three. I know I’m a lot weaker now than I was thirty years ago, because I’m doing the same exercises, just with less weight. It’s like really honest feedback, only other activity I can think of like that is running, and yeah I’m way slower as well.

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I’m 58, and have been doing Starting Strength for the last 6 years less for looks and more to avoid old age stuff like bad back, hips, knees, etc. It’s something I recommend to all my aging friends, because it works wonders for me. I agree it must be done carefully with coaching, and definitely is not for everyone.

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Never thought I'd see the day Freddie linked to a Joe Rogan video.

I do appreciate having a professional strongman's imprimatur for not having to do deadlifts. I have lived with back problems since junior high school (thanks, playground bullies that thought it was funny to shove me backwards with somebody tripping me from behind, causing me to land hard on my tailbone and herniating multiple discs at age 13) and the last time I was doing Starting Strength, I loved every single part of it except the deadlifts, which terrified me.

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