In seriousness, this has some older roots - I've known it to be a thing among older, very very masculine butch women. Kind of the female equivalent of very femme gay men who affectionately/jokingly refer to each other as "she," but with an added acknowledgment of butch women who very visibly take on a masculine role in relationships. Som…
In seriousness, this has some older roots - I've known it to be a thing among older, very very masculine butch women. Kind of the female equivalent of very femme gay men who affectionately/jokingly refer to each other as "she," but with an added acknowledgment of butch women who very visibly take on a masculine role in relationships. Sometimes butches will just use it among each other, kind of a private in-group marker.
These days it's become a much looser term - sometimes it says, "I'm fine with being female and a lesbian and am not transitioning, but am still a masculine-presenting person who feels more comfortable with he/him pronouns." Sometimes it's trans men who still identify very strongly with the lesbian community they came up in and want to hold on to both alignments. The thing about the "validity" discourse around it is that, like... however valid the identity, it still requires some explanation for most people because it's inherently counterintuitive. There's nothing wrong with a counterintuitive identity, imo, especially a pointedly queer one - but then it feels like... well, you maybe should have expected that this might be something you need to explain to people outside your immediate circle before they accept what you mean by it.
Exactly. You said this so well. And even after explanations, some people are always going to think, "Well, that doesn't make sense." But that's okay. I want people to respect my pronouns and choice of partner, and to treat me like anyone else. I don't need them to validate my specific understanding of my identity and attractions.
And really, I don't expect anyone to care. Now that I'm married, no one even asks about my specific sexual orientation anymore. I say "I have a wife" and they say "Oh cool." And that's the end. The kids will learn one day that all of this navel-gazing is of limited interest to others.
People forget that you can identify as something and get it wrong. Plenty of women, for instance, identify as being overweight when they aren't. It's called body dysmorphia. We needn't validate that identity, we need to show that it's wrong
I don't think of it as "getting it wrong," though - he/him lesbians, or at least the ones I've been around, basically never think of themselves as actual men. Trans men, sure, but generally a trans man who still goes out of his way to identify with lesbianism is someone who understands his own body and sexuality in terms of female-ness, if not femininity. It's a way of using language to acknowledge a level of visible masculinity that is central to someone's female experience in the world.
I'd maybe put it as, "People forget that you can identify as something and it's meaningful only to you and a small group of other people who understand exactly what you're referring to." He/him lesbian is one of the hundred thousand million ways to put words to one's sense of self; the lesbians I've known who identify with it tend to care more about it as a signal to other lesbians and/or trans men who are in the same boat as them re: their masculinity. As Carina mentioned above, the insistence that everyone around you exhibit the same level of perfect understanding of your niche identity is unrealistic and immature. But among friends, it can be really... well, validating, to be able to say "These are the people among whom my contradictions make perfect sense."
......Also, to be clear because I don’t have an edit button: I didn’t mean to say that I think trans men are “getting it wrong,” I meant that they do generally think of themselves as men. I very, very, extremely do not want to start a conversation here about whether that’s right or wrong, so I hesitate to even clarify, but thought that was an important ambiguity to clear up.
I meant it a bit differently. I mean that saying "I think your identity is wrong/incoherent" isn't equivalent to saying "you shouldn't exist." You can believe someone got a piece of their identity wrong without challenging their existence.
Another one I don't like is "naturally skinny." Genetics BMR don't differ that much for people with the same height and bodyfat percentage. The differences in percieved "metabolism" generally stem from a) people being terrible at estimating their food intake and b) non-exercise activity levels. I think "naturally skinny" people get the facts wrong. I don't think they shouldn't exist or something.
Naturally skinny people exist, as do naturally heavy people. I mean no disrespect, but frankly, the idea that they don't is in very direct contradiction to every bit of my "lived experience". I've been close enough to genetically different other people in my life to know how much we were both eating, and it was not a misestimation. The same kind and amount of food did not have the same effects. Period. My very thin husband can eat damn near anything and routinely stuff himself silly without gaining a pound, while I look twice at a salad and gain weight. I am more active than he is. One of my best friends growing up hated being extremely thin, and she couldn't put on weight to save her life. She ate easily *way* more than me (much less healthy food) and was not particularly active. There are plenty more examples.
Yes, people can gain and lose weight -- obviously they can. It isn't as set as height, sure, but it is definitely impacted by genetics. I think it's more outlandish to argue that it isn't. It's akin to the people who think practically every human trait is influenced by genetics, except intelligence. Never intelligence. I understand the allure and simplicity of believing weight is just a "calories in, calories out" matter of hard work and moral fortitude, but like most things in life, it's just not that simple.
If you want to have at me with the "laws of thermodynamics" stuff, be my guest. Obviously, I don't think the laws of physics are somehow magically suspended -- I just think the particulars that impact the equation are complicated, and that's the part we likely don't agree on. Bodies have ways of conserving (or not) energy. There are so many bodily processes we have little to no active control over that could impact how our bodies do or don't expend energy. We're no more at the End of Science than we are at the End of History. We do not have enough data of sufficiently high quality to be confident we have every factor that impacts weight worked out. I wish we did. It would make my life -- and many others' -- much easier.
Anyway, despite my inability to refrain from adding my two cents this time, I'm really not in the market for a protracted back and forth on this topic. Not meant as a cop-out, just the truth. So, I probably won't respond further, and you can have the last say, if you like. No hard feelings, hopefully, and I'll continue to see you around, I'm sure.
I said of the same height and bodyfat percentage. I'm guessing your husband and taller and has a lower bodyfat percentage. That's going to lead to a substantial difference in BMR.
In seriousness, this has some older roots - I've known it to be a thing among older, very very masculine butch women. Kind of the female equivalent of very femme gay men who affectionately/jokingly refer to each other as "she," but with an added acknowledgment of butch women who very visibly take on a masculine role in relationships. Sometimes butches will just use it among each other, kind of a private in-group marker.
These days it's become a much looser term - sometimes it says, "I'm fine with being female and a lesbian and am not transitioning, but am still a masculine-presenting person who feels more comfortable with he/him pronouns." Sometimes it's trans men who still identify very strongly with the lesbian community they came up in and want to hold on to both alignments. The thing about the "validity" discourse around it is that, like... however valid the identity, it still requires some explanation for most people because it's inherently counterintuitive. There's nothing wrong with a counterintuitive identity, imo, especially a pointedly queer one - but then it feels like... well, you maybe should have expected that this might be something you need to explain to people outside your immediate circle before they accept what you mean by it.
Exactly. You said this so well. And even after explanations, some people are always going to think, "Well, that doesn't make sense." But that's okay. I want people to respect my pronouns and choice of partner, and to treat me like anyone else. I don't need them to validate my specific understanding of my identity and attractions.
And really, I don't expect anyone to care. Now that I'm married, no one even asks about my specific sexual orientation anymore. I say "I have a wife" and they say "Oh cool." And that's the end. The kids will learn one day that all of this navel-gazing is of limited interest to others.
I like this very much: “The kids will learn one day that all of this navel-gazing is of limited interest to others.”
People forget that you can identify as something and get it wrong. Plenty of women, for instance, identify as being overweight when they aren't. It's called body dysmorphia. We needn't validate that identity, we need to show that it's wrong
I don't think of it as "getting it wrong," though - he/him lesbians, or at least the ones I've been around, basically never think of themselves as actual men. Trans men, sure, but generally a trans man who still goes out of his way to identify with lesbianism is someone who understands his own body and sexuality in terms of female-ness, if not femininity. It's a way of using language to acknowledge a level of visible masculinity that is central to someone's female experience in the world.
I'd maybe put it as, "People forget that you can identify as something and it's meaningful only to you and a small group of other people who understand exactly what you're referring to." He/him lesbian is one of the hundred thousand million ways to put words to one's sense of self; the lesbians I've known who identify with it tend to care more about it as a signal to other lesbians and/or trans men who are in the same boat as them re: their masculinity. As Carina mentioned above, the insistence that everyone around you exhibit the same level of perfect understanding of your niche identity is unrealistic and immature. But among friends, it can be really... well, validating, to be able to say "These are the people among whom my contradictions make perfect sense."
......Also, to be clear because I don’t have an edit button: I didn’t mean to say that I think trans men are “getting it wrong,” I meant that they do generally think of themselves as men. I very, very, extremely do not want to start a conversation here about whether that’s right or wrong, so I hesitate to even clarify, but thought that was an important ambiguity to clear up.
I meant it a bit differently. I mean that saying "I think your identity is wrong/incoherent" isn't equivalent to saying "you shouldn't exist." You can believe someone got a piece of their identity wrong without challenging their existence.
Another one I don't like is "naturally skinny." Genetics BMR don't differ that much for people with the same height and bodyfat percentage. The differences in percieved "metabolism" generally stem from a) people being terrible at estimating their food intake and b) non-exercise activity levels. I think "naturally skinny" people get the facts wrong. I don't think they shouldn't exist or something.
Naturally skinny people exist, as do naturally heavy people. I mean no disrespect, but frankly, the idea that they don't is in very direct contradiction to every bit of my "lived experience". I've been close enough to genetically different other people in my life to know how much we were both eating, and it was not a misestimation. The same kind and amount of food did not have the same effects. Period. My very thin husband can eat damn near anything and routinely stuff himself silly without gaining a pound, while I look twice at a salad and gain weight. I am more active than he is. One of my best friends growing up hated being extremely thin, and she couldn't put on weight to save her life. She ate easily *way* more than me (much less healthy food) and was not particularly active. There are plenty more examples.
Yes, people can gain and lose weight -- obviously they can. It isn't as set as height, sure, but it is definitely impacted by genetics. I think it's more outlandish to argue that it isn't. It's akin to the people who think practically every human trait is influenced by genetics, except intelligence. Never intelligence. I understand the allure and simplicity of believing weight is just a "calories in, calories out" matter of hard work and moral fortitude, but like most things in life, it's just not that simple.
If you want to have at me with the "laws of thermodynamics" stuff, be my guest. Obviously, I don't think the laws of physics are somehow magically suspended -- I just think the particulars that impact the equation are complicated, and that's the part we likely don't agree on. Bodies have ways of conserving (or not) energy. There are so many bodily processes we have little to no active control over that could impact how our bodies do or don't expend energy. We're no more at the End of Science than we are at the End of History. We do not have enough data of sufficiently high quality to be confident we have every factor that impacts weight worked out. I wish we did. It would make my life -- and many others' -- much easier.
Anyway, despite my inability to refrain from adding my two cents this time, I'm really not in the market for a protracted back and forth on this topic. Not meant as a cop-out, just the truth. So, I probably won't respond further, and you can have the last say, if you like. No hard feelings, hopefully, and I'll continue to see you around, I'm sure.
I said of the same height and bodyfat percentage. I'm guessing your husband and taller and has a lower bodyfat percentage. That's going to lead to a substantial difference in BMR.