Here’s a basic point I’ve been making for at least a dozen years, including in my book, and will now do again: the educational function of public schools, while certainly of prime importance, is the secondary function of public schools. The first function is giving children warm, safe places where they can be stimulated and looked after, and where they can access cheap or free meals if they need them. The humanitarian good of this function dwarfs that of the education function.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the downside to staying open is potentially more than you allow. If it is really true 70% of students are staying home and there is no remote anything, that is a problem.
I'm warning you all right now, you better mind your Ps and Qs about this one, because I am in earnest. And if you decide to cancel your subscription because I'm hard on you here, just do it, don't tell me, I don't give a shit.
Edit: actually do what you want, I'm gonna mute this thread out of a desire not to ban or insult people. Sometimes that's the best move.
Not trying to be snide but your linked study looked at children's deaths during the first 12 months of the pandemic. That's pre-Delta and pre-Omicron. Pediatric hospital admissions are rising significantly ( see English data here https://www.ilpandacentrostudio.it/uk.html?s=09).
This is not to say that your point is wrong but that we shouldn't be so confident that children face minimal risk.
Well, I agree this is hard. All sorts of things need to be balanced.
If there’s a 30% attendance rate at the school referenced in that Tweet, 70% of kids are not warm, fed, nurtured, learning at school or otherwise.
In places where the hospitals are full (and in my region, our hospitals have been over capacity and sending people elsewhere multiple times) it might just represent the greatest good for the greatest number to cancel school (and close bars, restaurants, casinos, bowling alleys, movie theatres, indoor sports) for a couple weeks when cases get too high.
It’s not good to do those things. It’s not desirable. It causes harms to some, to try to protect the well being of the group. It’s not neat or easy.
I agree, as someone who attended school gladly and enjoyed being around kind and sometimes nurturing adults there (and appreciated the food), that the attitude of “let them eat Zoom” is annoying and offensive and forgets our most vulnerable kids.
But yeah this is super complicated with so many competing needs. I do wish it were treated as such.
And many of those 22 million kids that get free or reduced price meals come from single parent homes. School's closed means no paycheck that week. I'm sure the 2.2k Likes is worth it though.
Interestingly, Josh Marshall had a recent subscriber-only post that (at least in many parts) took very much the sort of "you know, this is really complicated" tone you're looking for. A few excerpts:
– "Speaking just as a parent it has made sense to me that we’ve tried to test and isolate our way through the current Omicron wave. With widespread vaccination the stakes are simply much, much lower for the great majority of people involved. We also know more about how to do this. But we now have many schools that are spending almost all their time and resources testing, coordinating isolations and sending kids home from school with COVID. We shouldn’t act like it’s some kind of great breach of faith or war crime if a few of them decide to close for half a week.
"In the New York City public school system, in the week before winter break as cases exploded, lots of parents voted with their feet, holding kids back from school for the last two or three days before break. Many schools were down to 70% attendance. Some dropped to 50% or lower. Individual schools generally took an accommodating approach, many telling parents that they should do what felt safe to them and what made sense for their families. The schools would make sure homework was online so kids could keep up. This seemed to me like a realistic, wise course; flexible rather than doctrinal in a situation with many unknowns and considerable fear.
– "I was first prompted to write this post after reading a Twitter thread by Baltimore City Councilperson Zeke Cohen. He describes efforts by the Baltimore Teachers Union, parent groups, student groups and the city council to purchase masks and organize mass testing coming back from winter break. What was under discussion was a possible 4 to 5 day extension of winter break to make this testing possible since Baltimore is in the throes of its Omicron wave. Cohen describes being tweeted at by a public health professional from Johns Hopkins telling him that 'schools were the safest place and we didn’t care about kids' when this public health expert’s own institution has shifted to all remote for the Omicron wave."
– "Studies showing ‘learning loss’ and mental health impacts of remote learning are important but also a good deal less certain than their authors would suggest. These impacts are also harder than people let on to isolate from the broader experience of living through a pandemic – which lets all state for the record really, really sucks. I will say that even some of the people who I am aiming this post most squarely at have generated data that has helped us to understand, contextualize and act on the limited risk of school transmission and how to mitigate it. That is a huge help for all of us. They’re not the bad guys. It’s just that they have access to the biggest megaphones, the commanding heights of the culture and educational attainment that has allowed them to drown out and pigeon hole other voices and experiences which no less valuable and real. Each have different experiences and everyone is tired and a bit or much more than a bit broken."
I want you guys to understand that, while I had it far better than many, I also grew up into a totally broken home in adolescence, and experienced getting locked out of my own home, sleeping in the garage, and having to ask friends to stay at their place for awhile. I was orphaned at 15 and anything resembling parental monetary support was gone by 17, after which I was on my own. So this is sensitive to me, and for that reason I'm bowing out of comments.
The issues of kids facing abuse and neglect are often, well, neglected. It's awkward to face a hardship that doesn't nicely map onto an identity category today, and there's maybe even a whiff of corny conservative 'protecting the children' vibes turning people off. But they are some of the least able to advocate for themselves, and so the most in need of others to speak on their behalf.
I wonder to which degree Freddie's and other writers' opinions on whether school is a "warm, safe place where they can be stimulated and looked after" or "child prison" (Scott Alexander in his review of "The Cult of Smart") is shaped by their own school experiences. Freddie recently wrote about how high school movies seem to him to paint an overly bleak picture of the social environment that is a high school. Scott frequently goes on about how school bored him out of his mind academically. Personally, I have the complementary experience: I was socially awkward, sometimes bullied and lonely throughout my school career, but I genuinely enjoyed most classes. I liked just being able to lean back and soak up interesting stuff, no effort required.
Now all of this makes me wonder: do we have good data on how many children enjoy the social/academic aspects of school and how many do not? Do we have good data on which share of students feel "warm and safe" and well-fed at school as opposed to threatened and scared? Which share of at-risk children are more scared of abuse in school or at home? Which share feels bored and which feels overwhelmed academically?
I suppose if so, Freddie has probably covered it in "The Cult of Smart" (which I admit I have not read). If not, is there a particular reason not to do studies that simply ask children about this? Are there methodological issues I don't see?
My mom teaches in one of the wealthiest districts in my state. Some of HER students couldn't get consistent internet/computer access. If her kids--mostly the children of wealthy software devs--can't get remote learning working consistently...
My friend, who teaches in one of the poorest districts, lost about 80% of his kids after lockdown. They became unreachable, probably either homeless or thrust into the position of being sole provider for their families.
Teacher here. Forced to quarantine for 10 days (my school
Is changing to 5 days Monday). How do we keep the schools open amidst large staffing shortages in the next few weeks? I am talking 15-20% of the staff out potentially.
Thank you for this Freddie. I agree with all of it. We need more people advocating for vulnerable kids.
The only thing I’ll add is that while I see some people arguing that we need to “protect kids” from covid, I see more people arguing that *teachers* will die if we open schools. Since the teachers’ unions are the ones with the power to shut down school in many places, this is an important part of the debate.
But our kids have to come first. We prioritized teachers for the vaccine for this reason.
"warm and safe" - which inner city school did you go to? 😂
Mine wasn't even that bad and there were plenty of people getting jumped and beaten up every day.
I think yesterday Nellie bowles said 20% of Chicago students read at grade level? May as well just start building prisons now..
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the downside to staying open is potentially more than you allow. If it is really true 70% of students are staying home and there is no remote anything, that is a problem.
I'm warning you all right now, you better mind your Ps and Qs about this one, because I am in earnest. And if you decide to cancel your subscription because I'm hard on you here, just do it, don't tell me, I don't give a shit.
Edit: actually do what you want, I'm gonna mute this thread out of a desire not to ban or insult people. Sometimes that's the best move.
Not trying to be snide but your linked study looked at children's deaths during the first 12 months of the pandemic. That's pre-Delta and pre-Omicron. Pediatric hospital admissions are rising significantly ( see English data here https://www.ilpandacentrostudio.it/uk.html?s=09).
This is not to say that your point is wrong but that we shouldn't be so confident that children face minimal risk.
Well, I agree this is hard. All sorts of things need to be balanced.
If there’s a 30% attendance rate at the school referenced in that Tweet, 70% of kids are not warm, fed, nurtured, learning at school or otherwise.
In places where the hospitals are full (and in my region, our hospitals have been over capacity and sending people elsewhere multiple times) it might just represent the greatest good for the greatest number to cancel school (and close bars, restaurants, casinos, bowling alleys, movie theatres, indoor sports) for a couple weeks when cases get too high.
It’s not good to do those things. It’s not desirable. It causes harms to some, to try to protect the well being of the group. It’s not neat or easy.
I agree, as someone who attended school gladly and enjoyed being around kind and sometimes nurturing adults there (and appreciated the food), that the attitude of “let them eat Zoom” is annoying and offensive and forgets our most vulnerable kids.
But yeah this is super complicated with so many competing needs. I do wish it were treated as such.
And many of those 22 million kids that get free or reduced price meals come from single parent homes. School's closed means no paycheck that week. I'm sure the 2.2k Likes is worth it though.
Interestingly, Josh Marshall had a recent subscriber-only post that (at least in many parts) took very much the sort of "you know, this is really complicated" tone you're looking for. A few excerpts:
– "Speaking just as a parent it has made sense to me that we’ve tried to test and isolate our way through the current Omicron wave. With widespread vaccination the stakes are simply much, much lower for the great majority of people involved. We also know more about how to do this. But we now have many schools that are spending almost all their time and resources testing, coordinating isolations and sending kids home from school with COVID. We shouldn’t act like it’s some kind of great breach of faith or war crime if a few of them decide to close for half a week.
"In the New York City public school system, in the week before winter break as cases exploded, lots of parents voted with their feet, holding kids back from school for the last two or three days before break. Many schools were down to 70% attendance. Some dropped to 50% or lower. Individual schools generally took an accommodating approach, many telling parents that they should do what felt safe to them and what made sense for their families. The schools would make sure homework was online so kids could keep up. This seemed to me like a realistic, wise course; flexible rather than doctrinal in a situation with many unknowns and considerable fear.
– "I was first prompted to write this post after reading a Twitter thread by Baltimore City Councilperson Zeke Cohen. He describes efforts by the Baltimore Teachers Union, parent groups, student groups and the city council to purchase masks and organize mass testing coming back from winter break. What was under discussion was a possible 4 to 5 day extension of winter break to make this testing possible since Baltimore is in the throes of its Omicron wave. Cohen describes being tweeted at by a public health professional from Johns Hopkins telling him that 'schools were the safest place and we didn’t care about kids' when this public health expert’s own institution has shifted to all remote for the Omicron wave."
– "Studies showing ‘learning loss’ and mental health impacts of remote learning are important but also a good deal less certain than their authors would suggest. These impacts are also harder than people let on to isolate from the broader experience of living through a pandemic – which lets all state for the record really, really sucks. I will say that even some of the people who I am aiming this post most squarely at have generated data that has helped us to understand, contextualize and act on the limited risk of school transmission and how to mitigate it. That is a huge help for all of us. They’re not the bad guys. It’s just that they have access to the biggest megaphones, the commanding heights of the culture and educational attainment that has allowed them to drown out and pigeon hole other voices and experiences which no less valuable and real. Each have different experiences and everyone is tired and a bit or much more than a bit broken."
Link to the full post:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/who-are-the-ivy-league-glossy-mag-freedom-fighters-lecturing-you-about-schools
A-fucking-men
I want you guys to understand that, while I had it far better than many, I also grew up into a totally broken home in adolescence, and experienced getting locked out of my own home, sleeping in the garage, and having to ask friends to stay at their place for awhile. I was orphaned at 15 and anything resembling parental monetary support was gone by 17, after which I was on my own. So this is sensitive to me, and for that reason I'm bowing out of comments.
Thank you Freddie.
The issues of kids facing abuse and neglect are often, well, neglected. It's awkward to face a hardship that doesn't nicely map onto an identity category today, and there's maybe even a whiff of corny conservative 'protecting the children' vibes turning people off. But they are some of the least able to advocate for themselves, and so the most in need of others to speak on their behalf.
I wonder to which degree Freddie's and other writers' opinions on whether school is a "warm, safe place where they can be stimulated and looked after" or "child prison" (Scott Alexander in his review of "The Cult of Smart") is shaped by their own school experiences. Freddie recently wrote about how high school movies seem to him to paint an overly bleak picture of the social environment that is a high school. Scott frequently goes on about how school bored him out of his mind academically. Personally, I have the complementary experience: I was socially awkward, sometimes bullied and lonely throughout my school career, but I genuinely enjoyed most classes. I liked just being able to lean back and soak up interesting stuff, no effort required.
Now all of this makes me wonder: do we have good data on how many children enjoy the social/academic aspects of school and how many do not? Do we have good data on which share of students feel "warm and safe" and well-fed at school as opposed to threatened and scared? Which share of at-risk children are more scared of abuse in school or at home? Which share feels bored and which feels overwhelmed academically?
I suppose if so, Freddie has probably covered it in "The Cult of Smart" (which I admit I have not read). If not, is there a particular reason not to do studies that simply ask children about this? Are there methodological issues I don't see?
My mom teaches in one of the wealthiest districts in my state. Some of HER students couldn't get consistent internet/computer access. If her kids--mostly the children of wealthy software devs--can't get remote learning working consistently...
My friend, who teaches in one of the poorest districts, lost about 80% of his kids after lockdown. They became unreachable, probably either homeless or thrust into the position of being sole provider for their families.
Teacher here. Forced to quarantine for 10 days (my school
Is changing to 5 days Monday). How do we keep the schools open amidst large staffing shortages in the next few weeks? I am talking 15-20% of the staff out potentially.
Thank you for this Freddie. I agree with all of it. We need more people advocating for vulnerable kids.
The only thing I’ll add is that while I see some people arguing that we need to “protect kids” from covid, I see more people arguing that *teachers* will die if we open schools. Since the teachers’ unions are the ones with the power to shut down school in many places, this is an important part of the debate.
But our kids have to come first. We prioritized teachers for the vaccine for this reason.