That’s cool. I learned the alphabet at one point, before we traveled there for my brother-in-law’s wedding. The fact that they don’t separate words often in written Korean was a huge hangup when I was trying to read signs for things.
Oh that would make Chinese so much easier too, since some some “words” are two or more characters while some are only one. So this- “I must go to the library” is written as 我應該去圖書館 but really would make more sense as：
我<space> 應該 <space>去 <space>圖書館 which would more cleanly delineate the words.
Good for you! I’m a struggling Chinese learner/speaker, but know a bit about Korean and am fascinated by it. I’m curious- in my trips to Korea I’ve noticed they do occasionally sprinkle in some Chinese characters- are you going to try to learn some of those? For Chinese, I’ve discovered that learning characters hasn’t been the hardest part for me- don’t get me wrong- it’s tough - especially writing- but you’ll make progress if you just keep doing it. What is really hard for me is tone- pronouncing the same sound at different pitch levels actually changes the word- very hard for a native English speaker to get used to since that doesn’t typically differentiate words in English, or most other European languages.
Contra Korean, Chinese grammar is actually really easy- one example: Chinese doesn’t have tense. You indicate whether something occurred in the past, now or future with time words. So totally okay to say 現在我去銀行: literally: Now, I go bank or 昨天我去銀行: yesterday I go bank (notice the verb didn’t change) or 明天我去銀行: tomorrow I go bank. (Notice also the lack of articles which don’t do anything for meaning) Chinese grammar is almost like doing algebra- different from English but very straightforward and systematic.
But tone man... 買 (pronounced “my” but in a low tone) means “to buy” but 賣 (ALSO pronounced “my” - but with your tone falling) means “to sell”. That’s the mind-killer- for me anyway.
Yes, thank goodness there's no tonality in Korean. The way it was explained to me is that while all three share thing and China is the common root, Japanese and Korean share a lot of grammar but not a lot of vocabulary, while Chinese and Korean share a lot of vocabulary but not a lot of grammar. Chinese terms are pretty unavoidable, although the only way I ever know if something is considered a Sino term is if my teacher specifically points it out.
When I tried (and failed) to teach myself Korean, one of the books I used talked about something the authors called "pitch." It wasn't "tone," at least not in the way Chinese or other tone languages are, but it had something to do with pronunciation at the sentence level.
Do you have any idea what the authors may have been talking about?
(I realize I could probably google this, but if you or others have the time or willingness to answer, I'd appreciate it.)
I've tried at various points to learn Cantonese to be able to speak with my grandparents (who speak Taishanese, which is related to Cantonese but apparently not mutually intelligible!) and the tones are SO hard. Even though I've grown up with adults around me speaking it, I still find it really hard to distinguish, and I'll often repeat words back to my aunt that I think is totally correct and she'll be like "....no, that's completely wrong" and she'll repeat the word and it sounds exactly the same to me.
I actually think I pronounce my own Chinese name incorrectly because native speakers get really confused when I say it to them.
I've been with my spouse for over twenty years, taken multiple trips to Thailand with them, speak with their parents fairly regularly, have learned a little of the language, and I'm still not convinced I'm pronouncing their nickname correctly, let alone their actual name!
Just think of all the great cinema you'll have access to once you learn Cantonese!
The pitch stuff really is crazy. I learned Mandarin form my parents and while I can speak it conversationally, sometimes I’ll get a pitch wrong and they’ll correct me. It is a brutal language to learn as a native English speaker and I am grateful I learned both as a child.
Congratulations, this is cool and inspiring! I've been watching a lot of Korean shows in Netflix and have so far only figured out that "sumida" is probably the verb "to be"... May have to take this to the next level!
Also, it's really interesting that in Korean shows, self-centered, gauche characters pepper their speech with English and French phrases, where "authentic" people are portrayed as using loan words/phrases very rarely.
Well done. Keep it up. I have been learning Thai for ten years now and only now feel like I am making real progress. It’s a shame US schools don’t generally require the learning of multiple languages. My wife speaks several and as such her brain picks up information much more easily than I do. I read somewhere that it’s not rare for people whose mother tongue is a tonal language to have perfect pitch! It behooves us to learn as many languages as possible. Keep it up!
Are there any apps or other resources you would recommend for a casual learner? I visit Thailand fairly regularly and would love to know a bit more Thai beyond basic pleasantries but none of the language learning apps I’ve tried seem to support it.
Good work learning Thai, the tones alone seem like a big challenge. I feel like I’m always getting my intonation wrong when I try to speak Thai and I never found that difficult with eg. Mandarin.
It won't teach you any grammar but I've noticed that the Drops vocabulary app has Thai. It's also just a nice vocab app in general IMO, though I recommend using it in conjunction with flashcards.
There are many languages available (though not Korean afaik) and it’s free/donation based. I refreshed my college French before a trip to Paris and it was so much fun.
Congratulations on a fantastic accomplishment, Freddie!
I am not naturally talented at learning languages, but I got to B1 in Czech when I lived in Prague, and I am at about B2 in German, after having lived for almost five years in Switzerland. I agree that the “critical period” idea is flawed and that almost anyone can learn another language at any age. But potential language-learners need to be aware of a couple of caveats:
1. Know how you learn best and then ignore other people’s suggestions if they don’t fit your particular strengths. So, for example, my auditory processing is very poor--even in English. My husband, on the other hand, is off the charts in auditory processing. He has never had musical training but can listen to a complicated contemporary work of classical music once and be able to hum the melody from memory, for example. He also listens to podcasts at 2x speed. Very annoying! Anyway, my husband learns languages (Russian, Czech, French, and German) almost exclusively using his auditory capacities--with the Babel app for German, for example, which has you repeat phrases in the language.
I, by contrast, use a mix of social learning--I have belonged to a number of conversation groups--and reading, because that’s where my strengths lie. There is no single solution to learning a language, but if you are honest with yourself about your particular abilities, you can find a method that works for you.
2. There is no substitute for getting out there and making yourself speak the language with other people. And the wonderful side benefit of this strategy is that you discover that other people are wonderfully kind, patient, and generous. Really. I continue to be amazed by how helpful people have been any time I have tried to speak with them in their own languages (I also speak a bit of French). A lot of times we fear looking foolish and making mistakes, but the single greatest advantage for learning a language is letting go of this fear and just giving it a whirl. You’ll be glad you did!
Ah, this is making me miss hearing Korean every day. I used to live in Gwangju, which was (in)famous for its accent. I never learned any real proficiency but I managed to get by all right and make myself understood without ever actually learning any grammar. Mostly I picked up phrases here and there, often from my students, who I was very forcefully told not to speak Korean with.
You're absolutely right about the alphabet. I learned it in about two days and then went around reading everything, having no idea what I was reading unless I stumbled across the name of food I'd eaten or the random loan word.
From my experience with foreign languages, the best way to learn is to be in a relationship with a native speaker. That motivation is hard to replicate! And everyone I know who has achieved fluency in another language as an adult has had that situation. Doesn't mean it's a requirement, but I think it makes a pretty big difference.
As for speaking - in Korea, almost everyone has 12 years of compulsory English education and many of them also go to an English hagwon for those 12 years, yet the vast majority of Koreans do not feel comfortable speaking English in front of a native speaker. I was the only white person in my neighborhood and even though everyone knew I was an English speaker from a glance, very few people attempted to speak to me in English. Which is fine! It's their country, but it was funny knowing that they spoke English 1000x better than I spoke Korean and rarely ever hearing English outside of my hagwon.
I'm one of those people who thinks he can't learn a new language, but to be fair I did try: years of schooling and studying abroad in Spain has left me with some vocabulary, and that's about it. Maybe it's worth trying again someday. I am lucky enough to grow up bilingual, so my focus now is mostly on keeping my edge in both languages.
I only know how to say "thank you" in Korean. It makes native speakers so happy to hear you use it. There's a lot to be said for learning a few essential words in many languages. The benefits can be huge.
"For now it’s enough that I can talk shit about people with my girlfriend in public without anyone else knowing what we’re saying."
My parents both speak Taishanese, but the only situations they actually use it instead of English is to a) talk to my grandparents, b) talk shit in public, and c) talk to each other about things they don't want my sister and I to know about.
As such, it's been a long-held dream of mine to secretly learn enough to be able to eavesdrop on them.
As you have no doubt discovered, languages are best learned horizontally.
My white ass would never have achieved fluency in Mandarin without the motivation provided by countless girlfriends bitching at me in a foreign tongue.
Thanks for sharing this, Freddie and congratulations on the progress. I particularly enjoyed your advice to not overthink adult language learning. I have learned two languages as an adult--neither nearly as difficult as Korean. The first language, Spanish, I had the overthinking, I must speak with perfect native fluency, mindset. It was not fun. The second, Portuguese, I learned with the mindset you talk about here. My experience changed completely to where in Portuguese making mistakes or knowing the exact right thing to say doesn’t even seem relevant to me, and it doesn’t seem to matter to the world either. The world just seems surprised and delighted that a random American listens with focus and can offer a few interesting observations about Garrincha’s dribbling, José Saramago’s prose, or Roberto Burle Marx’s aesthetics.
Ah, making me want to dust off my old Mandarin notes.
Used to speak it a fair bit with at my old employer in Manchester, but sadly after moving my brain jettisoned just about everything.
Found it pretty easy to speak and listen to (it actually isn't as *fast* as it sounds), but reading was a near impossibility for me. Simply didn't have enough time to get to grips with it.
Yeah- certainly not easy. But reading is way easier than writing- and the good news is that today - you really don’t have to write, what with smartphones and computers everywhere. Just learn a system like pinyin when you type in the pronunciation and you can pick out the character you want (provided you can read it).
There is (was?) A great app called Pleco, or something like that.
You could type pinyin, search words in English to get translations (with pronunciation), even draw characters.
I was at a tradeshow a few weeks ago, and got speaking to a guy developing an app which had near real-time translation. It was pretty mind blowing.
To test it, I gave it the only thing I (ironically) remember in mandarin - "I can speak a little Chinese" - and it got it right despite my dodgy tones.
I grew up with a second language and was going to say that you're only doing this to talk shit about people with your girlfriend, but you beat me to it. It is the best part! I'm also guessing this may be to prevent your girlfriends family/friends from talking shit about you.
You point it out here but what I found difficult in learning Korean is that they largely only want to teach foreign students the honorific form while you have to pick up the colloquial form from Korean dramas. Being able to read the alphabet in less than a day and pronounce words that you may not yet understand is a huge bonus of the Korean language, however.
Great post, Freddie. And totally agreed re: the learned helplessness of not trying because "only kids can pick up a language." If you (or anyone else in a similar position) find the short stories too challenging right now, I recommend reading kid's books. During the year I spent in Argentina (as a 22-year-old), I read the paper everyday and the occasional children's book, and I think both really helped accelerate my progress. It was also humbling having to stop five times a page to look up a word!
Apart from the fun and satisfaction of being able to converse with locals beyond simple questions about directions, prices, weather, etc., my exploration of Spanish grammar mechanics has, I think, made me a better writer and editor in English.
That’s cool. I learned the alphabet at one point, before we traveled there for my brother-in-law’s wedding. The fact that they don’t separate words often in written Korean was a huge hangup when I was trying to read signs for things.
Oh that would make Chinese so much easier too, since some some “words” are two or more characters while some are only one. So this- “I must go to the library” is written as 我應該去圖書館 but really would make more sense as：
我<space> 應該 <space>去 <space>圖書館 which would more cleanly delineate the words.
Good for you! I’m a struggling Chinese learner/speaker, but know a bit about Korean and am fascinated by it. I’m curious- in my trips to Korea I’ve noticed they do occasionally sprinkle in some Chinese characters- are you going to try to learn some of those? For Chinese, I’ve discovered that learning characters hasn’t been the hardest part for me- don’t get me wrong- it’s tough - especially writing- but you’ll make progress if you just keep doing it. What is really hard for me is tone- pronouncing the same sound at different pitch levels actually changes the word- very hard for a native English speaker to get used to since that doesn’t typically differentiate words in English, or most other European languages.
Contra Korean, Chinese grammar is actually really easy- one example: Chinese doesn’t have tense. You indicate whether something occurred in the past, now or future with time words. So totally okay to say 現在我去銀行: literally: Now, I go bank or 昨天我去銀行: yesterday I go bank (notice the verb didn’t change) or 明天我去銀行: tomorrow I go bank. (Notice also the lack of articles which don’t do anything for meaning) Chinese grammar is almost like doing algebra- different from English but very straightforward and systematic.
But tone man... 買 (pronounced “my” but in a low tone) means “to buy” but 賣 (ALSO pronounced “my” - but with your tone falling) means “to sell”. That’s the mind-killer- for me anyway.
Yes, thank goodness there's no tonality in Korean. The way it was explained to me is that while all three share thing and China is the common root, Japanese and Korean share a lot of grammar but not a lot of vocabulary, while Chinese and Korean share a lot of vocabulary but not a lot of grammar. Chinese terms are pretty unavoidable, although the only way I ever know if something is considered a Sino term is if my teacher specifically points it out.
When I tried (and failed) to teach myself Korean, one of the books I used talked about something the authors called "pitch." It wasn't "tone," at least not in the way Chinese or other tone languages are, but it had something to do with pronunciation at the sentence level.
Do you have any idea what the authors may have been talking about?
(I realize I could probably google this, but if you or others have the time or willingness to answer, I'd appreciate it.)
I've tried at various points to learn Cantonese to be able to speak with my grandparents (who speak Taishanese, which is related to Cantonese but apparently not mutually intelligible!) and the tones are SO hard. Even though I've grown up with adults around me speaking it, I still find it really hard to distinguish, and I'll often repeat words back to my aunt that I think is totally correct and she'll be like "....no, that's completely wrong" and she'll repeat the word and it sounds exactly the same to me.
I actually think I pronounce my own Chinese name incorrectly because native speakers get really confused when I say it to them.
Oh God- when it comes to tone Cantonese is even worse than Mandarin. Thoughts and prayers!
I've been with my spouse for over twenty years, taken multiple trips to Thailand with them, speak with their parents fairly regularly, have learned a little of the language, and I'm still not convinced I'm pronouncing their nickname correctly, let alone their actual name!
Just think of all the great cinema you'll have access to once you learn Cantonese!
The pitch stuff really is crazy. I learned Mandarin form my parents and while I can speak it conversationally, sometimes I’ll get a pitch wrong and they’ll correct me. It is a brutal language to learn as a native English speaker and I am grateful I learned both as a child.
Congratulations, this is cool and inspiring! I've been watching a lot of Korean shows in Netflix and have so far only figured out that "sumida" is probably the verb "to be"... May have to take this to the next level!
Also, it's really interesting that in Korean shows, self-centered, gauche characters pepper their speech with English and French phrases, where "authentic" people are portrayed as using loan words/phrases very rarely.
Well done. Keep it up. I have been learning Thai for ten years now and only now feel like I am making real progress. It’s a shame US schools don’t generally require the learning of multiple languages. My wife speaks several and as such her brain picks up information much more easily than I do. I read somewhere that it’s not rare for people whose mother tongue is a tonal language to have perfect pitch! It behooves us to learn as many languages as possible. Keep it up!
Now that (about tonal languages -> perfect pitch) is interesting! Man the Thai alphabet looks really hard to learn in itself!
Are there any apps or other resources you would recommend for a casual learner? I visit Thailand fairly regularly and would love to know a bit more Thai beyond basic pleasantries but none of the language learning apps I’ve tried seem to support it.
Good work learning Thai, the tones alone seem like a big challenge. I feel like I’m always getting my intonation wrong when I try to speak Thai and I never found that difficult with eg. Mandarin.
It won't teach you any grammar but I've noticed that the Drops vocabulary app has Thai. It's also just a nice vocab app in general IMO, though I recommend using it in conjunction with flashcards.
I found Ling to be a helpful app!
I highly recommend:
https://www.languagetransfer.org/
There are many languages available (though not Korean afaik) and it’s free/donation based. I refreshed my college French before a trip to Paris and it was so much fun.
Congratulations on a fantastic accomplishment, Freddie!
I am not naturally talented at learning languages, but I got to B1 in Czech when I lived in Prague, and I am at about B2 in German, after having lived for almost five years in Switzerland. I agree that the “critical period” idea is flawed and that almost anyone can learn another language at any age. But potential language-learners need to be aware of a couple of caveats:
1. Know how you learn best and then ignore other people’s suggestions if they don’t fit your particular strengths. So, for example, my auditory processing is very poor--even in English. My husband, on the other hand, is off the charts in auditory processing. He has never had musical training but can listen to a complicated contemporary work of classical music once and be able to hum the melody from memory, for example. He also listens to podcasts at 2x speed. Very annoying! Anyway, my husband learns languages (Russian, Czech, French, and German) almost exclusively using his auditory capacities--with the Babel app for German, for example, which has you repeat phrases in the language.
I, by contrast, use a mix of social learning--I have belonged to a number of conversation groups--and reading, because that’s where my strengths lie. There is no single solution to learning a language, but if you are honest with yourself about your particular abilities, you can find a method that works for you.
2. There is no substitute for getting out there and making yourself speak the language with other people. And the wonderful side benefit of this strategy is that you discover that other people are wonderfully kind, patient, and generous. Really. I continue to be amazed by how helpful people have been any time I have tried to speak with them in their own languages (I also speak a bit of French). A lot of times we fear looking foolish and making mistakes, but the single greatest advantage for learning a language is letting go of this fear and just giving it a whirl. You’ll be glad you did!
Ah, this is making me miss hearing Korean every day. I used to live in Gwangju, which was (in)famous for its accent. I never learned any real proficiency but I managed to get by all right and make myself understood without ever actually learning any grammar. Mostly I picked up phrases here and there, often from my students, who I was very forcefully told not to speak Korean with.
You're absolutely right about the alphabet. I learned it in about two days and then went around reading everything, having no idea what I was reading unless I stumbled across the name of food I'd eaten or the random loan word.
From my experience with foreign languages, the best way to learn is to be in a relationship with a native speaker. That motivation is hard to replicate! And everyone I know who has achieved fluency in another language as an adult has had that situation. Doesn't mean it's a requirement, but I think it makes a pretty big difference.
As for speaking - in Korea, almost everyone has 12 years of compulsory English education and many of them also go to an English hagwon for those 12 years, yet the vast majority of Koreans do not feel comfortable speaking English in front of a native speaker. I was the only white person in my neighborhood and even though everyone knew I was an English speaker from a glance, very few people attempted to speak to me in English. Which is fine! It's their country, but it was funny knowing that they spoke English 1000x better than I spoke Korean and rarely ever hearing English outside of my hagwon.
I'm one of those people who thinks he can't learn a new language, but to be fair I did try: years of schooling and studying abroad in Spain has left me with some vocabulary, and that's about it. Maybe it's worth trying again someday. I am lucky enough to grow up bilingual, so my focus now is mostly on keeping my edge in both languages.
I only know how to say "thank you" in Korean. It makes native speakers so happy to hear you use it. There's a lot to be said for learning a few essential words in many languages. The benefits can be huge.
Honestly, THE most important word to know if visiting a country, in my opinion!
"For now it’s enough that I can talk shit about people with my girlfriend in public without anyone else knowing what we’re saying."
My parents both speak Taishanese, but the only situations they actually use it instead of English is to a) talk to my grandparents, b) talk shit in public, and c) talk to each other about things they don't want my sister and I to know about.
As such, it's been a long-held dream of mine to secretly learn enough to be able to eavesdrop on them.
As you have no doubt discovered, languages are best learned horizontally.
My white ass would never have achieved fluency in Mandarin without the motivation provided by countless girlfriends bitching at me in a foreign tongue.
Believe it's known as the `Flashman' system.
🤣
Thanks for sharing this, Freddie and congratulations on the progress. I particularly enjoyed your advice to not overthink adult language learning. I have learned two languages as an adult--neither nearly as difficult as Korean. The first language, Spanish, I had the overthinking, I must speak with perfect native fluency, mindset. It was not fun. The second, Portuguese, I learned with the mindset you talk about here. My experience changed completely to where in Portuguese making mistakes or knowing the exact right thing to say doesn’t even seem relevant to me, and it doesn’t seem to matter to the world either. The world just seems surprised and delighted that a random American listens with focus and can offer a few interesting observations about Garrincha’s dribbling, José Saramago’s prose, or Roberto Burle Marx’s aesthetics.
Ah, making me want to dust off my old Mandarin notes.
Used to speak it a fair bit with at my old employer in Manchester, but sadly after moving my brain jettisoned just about everything.
Found it pretty easy to speak and listen to (it actually isn't as *fast* as it sounds), but reading was a near impossibility for me. Simply didn't have enough time to get to grips with it.
Yeah- certainly not easy. But reading is way easier than writing- and the good news is that today - you really don’t have to write, what with smartphones and computers everywhere. Just learn a system like pinyin when you type in the pronunciation and you can pick out the character you want (provided you can read it).
There is (was?) A great app called Pleco, or something like that.
You could type pinyin, search words in English to get translations (with pronunciation), even draw characters.
I was at a tradeshow a few weeks ago, and got speaking to a guy developing an app which had near real-time translation. It was pretty mind blowing.
To test it, I gave it the only thing I (ironically) remember in mandarin - "I can speak a little Chinese" - and it got it right despite my dodgy tones.
I grew up with a second language and was going to say that you're only doing this to talk shit about people with your girlfriend, but you beat me to it. It is the best part! I'm also guessing this may be to prevent your girlfriends family/friends from talking shit about you.
You point it out here but what I found difficult in learning Korean is that they largely only want to teach foreign students the honorific form while you have to pick up the colloquial form from Korean dramas. Being able to read the alphabet in less than a day and pronounce words that you may not yet understand is a huge bonus of the Korean language, however.
Great post, Freddie. And totally agreed re: the learned helplessness of not trying because "only kids can pick up a language." If you (or anyone else in a similar position) find the short stories too challenging right now, I recommend reading kid's books. During the year I spent in Argentina (as a 22-year-old), I read the paper everyday and the occasional children's book, and I think both really helped accelerate my progress. It was also humbling having to stop five times a page to look up a word!
Apart from the fun and satisfaction of being able to converse with locals beyond simple questions about directions, prices, weather, etc., my exploration of Spanish grammar mechanics has, I think, made me a better writer and editor in English.