Interesting that baseball sometimes seems to have the opposite problem of revering its older players too much. You still see Walter Johnson and Cy Young on lists of the top pitchers of all time even though they probably threw 85 mph.
Nice! More of this kinda thing please. The world will always have its tragic, unsolveable problems and they’ll be debated endlessly. But an old fart such as myself can play with home court advantage in the Old Timers Game! A few points: ESPN & 24/7 web hilights are the likely culprits for lower ratings. Back in the day it was watch the game or be satisfied w/15 seconds of hilights at 11:25 pm. You’re right about the current biases. Is there any field as lame as the current version of sports ‘journalism’? The crisis makes our political discourse seem healthy! And how would the venerable hall-of-famers stand up against today’s crowd? Your take on Wilt says it all. He was a beast.
my favorite quick 'n' dirty comparison to use here is to think about "imagine how many more points over the course of his career larry bird would've racked up if he had a computer tell him to just take a step or two back before shooting."
(oh and how modern medicine/conditioning/travel/etc. would've saved his back)
Thinking Basketball recently posted a video cataloguing how the rules have changed in the NBA over the decades, which might even be a larger factor than technological progress: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPXSqOhykg
Highly recommend watching - what appears to be offensive basketball ineptitude in the 1960's really just reflects the much stricter dribbling and offensive foul rules.
Just some random encouragement for anyone who, like me, found this argument interesting but has never actually followed basketball to watch “The Last Dance” on Netflix. I probably couldn’t name 5 NBA teams off the top of my head and it was still one of the best things I’ve seen in years; I feel like I understand the 90s in a whole new way.
Most excellent. Kudos for Bob Cousy era commentary, including pterodactyl eggs for breakfast. Gold.
I watch a good amount of NBA - interestingly, has pulled me away from college basketball. But the worst thing about the NBA is the incredible hype machine (which you allude to). This manifests itself in the most terrible announcers/commentators, always overstating the value of a play, and players. Even Van Gundy has succumbed. NBA telecasts are insight-free zones.
(This coincides with incredibly bad officiating, that usually goes uncritiqued by announcers. Now that is something to explore. Is the NBA the worst? Did it used to be better?)
The hype has infected “basketball journalism” to a large degree as well, as you note. And finally, LeBron, KD and Stef have performed at a level for which there are no heirs apparent. I think that’s the reason for the decline in ratings.
Great post and very spot on. As a GenXer whose home team was the 80s Denver Nuggets with the likes of Alex English, Dan Issel, TR Dunn, Bill Hanzlik when the Nuggets were posting 126pts per game and that was back before Air Jordans and Reebok pumps and the refs actually blew the whistle for travelling and the team played as a team.
What a lot of NBA Now fans don't realize is how much game play has truly changed over the last 40 years. Teams today rarely run set plays, and visually it's a veritable free-for-all on the court which is fine for some but if you watch older games from the 80s and 90s, the game play is vastly different as is the physicality of the players.
And I agree that Wilt Chamberlin is very much one of the most disrespected players in NBA history.
This is true in just about any area. We can compare across eras, but each era is based upon the pervious and in its own context.
Take movies. I love watching older movies. Some are just amazing. Some just don't hold up. Some of those movies that were huge blockbusters look bad and the plots are silly. Others are timeless.
I have to remind myself to not be too harsh on some because of the context of the era and technology available. Aging CGI is going to make a lot of movies over the last 20 years look awful over time.
I moved to the US from Australia more than twenty years ago and one thing that stood out even then, before analytics swallowed fandom, was the faith that American sports fans had that statistics could settle any argument.
It was common to hear questions like the ones discussed here posed in all sincerity: Jordan vs Kobe, Ali vs Tyson, late aughts Patriots vs the Steel Curtain era Steelers - who ya got? It beats the weather as a topic of conversation I guess, but not by much.
Watching American friends go back and forth, citing statistics chapter and verse, I was touched by their belief that they ultimately would be able to puzzle it all out before the pitcher ran dry. I was also struck by something with which I was unfamiliar: sports banter as a forum for competition in itself; the idea that you could prove yourself to be the 'best' sports fan by having the most correct facts at your fingertips in service of the most correct opinions. This, of course, is the basis of a multi-billion dollar industry of punditry, fantasy sports and gambling; it's also a little alienating.
By contrast, in Australia, two men at a bar will also eventually seek refuge from awkward silence in the discussion of sport (I'm code-switching here between America's 'sports' and Australia's 'sport' because this is as close as I come to being bilingual). But the conversation takes place on entirely different terms.
"Wasn't Sterlo awesome?" one of them might say, referring to Peter Sterling, legendary half-back of the Parramatta Eels Rugby League team during the 80s.
"Yeah, he was," the other would reply, with admirable brevity.
"Or how about Mick Cronin?" the first bloke (going all out here on the Australianisms) might say, to keep the flickering flame of conversation alive.
"Yeah, he was awesome too."
And then they could just sit there, smiling, watching the highlight reels in their own mind and enjoying their beer in silence. Until one of them eventually breaks the reverie by saying, "Des Hasler was pretty fucken' awesome as well," referring to Sterling's rival at the hated Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles.
"Shit yeah," comes the reply. And once again an agreeable silence settles over them.
It's a totally different form of sports appreciation, like slipping into a warm bath. Try it sometime.
Largely agree with everything you wrote, but just wanted to throw out a few thoughts (that don't contradict you, but one of which I rarely seen made):
- The players aren't just better for all the modernity reasons you point out, but the overall depth of quality is undoubtedly better because it's drawing from a much larger pool of players from around the world. The 8th best player on the Kings in the 70s would still be an amazing player in 2022, but might not be on a roster. There were about 10-15 foreign players when Jordan played, for example. There are something like 130+ now. This part always seems glossed over.
- I think the ratings have largely dropped due to the totality of entertainment options, but also because of how much politics has been wrapped up with the sport. I mean this sincerely: I've not met a Republican who is an NBA head in the last ten years or so. This might also have something to do with how obnoxious certain NBA fans can be, like the Twitter folks.
- The space in today's game is great, but when the games become simple three point shooting contests, it can get boring, no doubt. They need to change some rules, I think.
The NBA playoffs are still the best sports 'event' there is, though.
Oscar Robertson. Not Robinson.
So...MJ or Lebron?
Interesting that baseball sometimes seems to have the opposite problem of revering its older players too much. You still see Walter Johnson and Cy Young on lists of the top pitchers of all time even though they probably threw 85 mph.
Nice! More of this kinda thing please. The world will always have its tragic, unsolveable problems and they’ll be debated endlessly. But an old fart such as myself can play with home court advantage in the Old Timers Game! A few points: ESPN & 24/7 web hilights are the likely culprits for lower ratings. Back in the day it was watch the game or be satisfied w/15 seconds of hilights at 11:25 pm. You’re right about the current biases. Is there any field as lame as the current version of sports ‘journalism’? The crisis makes our political discourse seem healthy! And how would the venerable hall-of-famers stand up against today’s crowd? Your take on Wilt says it all. He was a beast.
This should be completely uncontroversial. I am genuinely not sure how someone could disagree with this except just being contrarian.
Keep in mind that there is a ton more money in today's game, which is a hellova incentive to attracting talent.
Thank you, this is how I feel EVERY TIME I see folks make these extremely confident comparisons.
my favorite quick 'n' dirty comparison to use here is to think about "imagine how many more points over the course of his career larry bird would've racked up if he had a computer tell him to just take a step or two back before shooting."
(oh and how modern medicine/conditioning/travel/etc. would've saved his back)
This was a delightful argument to read, thanks. Added benefit of being true, of course!
Thinking Basketball recently posted a video cataloguing how the rules have changed in the NBA over the decades, which might even be a larger factor than technological progress: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPXSqOhykg
Highly recommend watching - what appears to be offensive basketball ineptitude in the 1960's really just reflects the much stricter dribbling and offensive foul rules.
Just some random encouragement for anyone who, like me, found this argument interesting but has never actually followed basketball to watch “The Last Dance” on Netflix. I probably couldn’t name 5 NBA teams off the top of my head and it was still one of the best things I’ve seen in years; I feel like I understand the 90s in a whole new way.
Most excellent. Kudos for Bob Cousy era commentary, including pterodactyl eggs for breakfast. Gold.
I watch a good amount of NBA - interestingly, has pulled me away from college basketball. But the worst thing about the NBA is the incredible hype machine (which you allude to). This manifests itself in the most terrible announcers/commentators, always overstating the value of a play, and players. Even Van Gundy has succumbed. NBA telecasts are insight-free zones.
(This coincides with incredibly bad officiating, that usually goes uncritiqued by announcers. Now that is something to explore. Is the NBA the worst? Did it used to be better?)
The hype has infected “basketball journalism” to a large degree as well, as you note. And finally, LeBron, KD and Stef have performed at a level for which there are no heirs apparent. I think that’s the reason for the decline in ratings.
Great post and very spot on. As a GenXer whose home team was the 80s Denver Nuggets with the likes of Alex English, Dan Issel, TR Dunn, Bill Hanzlik when the Nuggets were posting 126pts per game and that was back before Air Jordans and Reebok pumps and the refs actually blew the whistle for travelling and the team played as a team.
What a lot of NBA Now fans don't realize is how much game play has truly changed over the last 40 years. Teams today rarely run set plays, and visually it's a veritable free-for-all on the court which is fine for some but if you watch older games from the 80s and 90s, the game play is vastly different as is the physicality of the players.
And I agree that Wilt Chamberlin is very much one of the most disrespected players in NBA history.
This is true in just about any area. We can compare across eras, but each era is based upon the pervious and in its own context.
Take movies. I love watching older movies. Some are just amazing. Some just don't hold up. Some of those movies that were huge blockbusters look bad and the plots are silly. Others are timeless.
I have to remind myself to not be too harsh on some because of the context of the era and technology available. Aging CGI is going to make a lot of movies over the last 20 years look awful over time.
I moved to the US from Australia more than twenty years ago and one thing that stood out even then, before analytics swallowed fandom, was the faith that American sports fans had that statistics could settle any argument.
It was common to hear questions like the ones discussed here posed in all sincerity: Jordan vs Kobe, Ali vs Tyson, late aughts Patriots vs the Steel Curtain era Steelers - who ya got? It beats the weather as a topic of conversation I guess, but not by much.
Watching American friends go back and forth, citing statistics chapter and verse, I was touched by their belief that they ultimately would be able to puzzle it all out before the pitcher ran dry. I was also struck by something with which I was unfamiliar: sports banter as a forum for competition in itself; the idea that you could prove yourself to be the 'best' sports fan by having the most correct facts at your fingertips in service of the most correct opinions. This, of course, is the basis of a multi-billion dollar industry of punditry, fantasy sports and gambling; it's also a little alienating.
By contrast, in Australia, two men at a bar will also eventually seek refuge from awkward silence in the discussion of sport (I'm code-switching here between America's 'sports' and Australia's 'sport' because this is as close as I come to being bilingual). But the conversation takes place on entirely different terms.
"Wasn't Sterlo awesome?" one of them might say, referring to Peter Sterling, legendary half-back of the Parramatta Eels Rugby League team during the 80s.
"Yeah, he was," the other would reply, with admirable brevity.
"Or how about Mick Cronin?" the first bloke (going all out here on the Australianisms) might say, to keep the flickering flame of conversation alive.
"Yeah, he was awesome too."
And then they could just sit there, smiling, watching the highlight reels in their own mind and enjoying their beer in silence. Until one of them eventually breaks the reverie by saying, "Des Hasler was pretty fucken' awesome as well," referring to Sterling's rival at the hated Manly-Warringah Sea Eagles.
"Shit yeah," comes the reply. And once again an agreeable silence settles over them.
It's a totally different form of sports appreciation, like slipping into a warm bath. Try it sometime.
Largely agree with everything you wrote, but just wanted to throw out a few thoughts (that don't contradict you, but one of which I rarely seen made):
- The players aren't just better for all the modernity reasons you point out, but the overall depth of quality is undoubtedly better because it's drawing from a much larger pool of players from around the world. The 8th best player on the Kings in the 70s would still be an amazing player in 2022, but might not be on a roster. There were about 10-15 foreign players when Jordan played, for example. There are something like 130+ now. This part always seems glossed over.
- I think the ratings have largely dropped due to the totality of entertainment options, but also because of how much politics has been wrapped up with the sport. I mean this sincerely: I've not met a Republican who is an NBA head in the last ten years or so. This might also have something to do with how obnoxious certain NBA fans can be, like the Twitter folks.
- The space in today's game is great, but when the games become simple three point shooting contests, it can get boring, no doubt. They need to change some rules, I think.
The NBA playoffs are still the best sports 'event' there is, though.