Well done. You touch on it a little but has anyone written anything on those who went heterodox and received so much positive attention from the other side that they seemingly switched views?
Most of this comes down to making excuses for Team D.
Note how the election of Obama neutered the antiwar movement better than anything Bush/Cheney ever could have done, and the election of Trump (who made some sensible noises before he got elected, along with a lot of asinine noises) turned goodthink liberals into rabid supporters of Muh National Security State.
For what it’s worth, I wasn’t surprised by the previous post and I’ve found you to be quite consistent in where you stand on things. I do read you precisely because your point of view is quite different from
mine in a number of respects, which is useful in more ways than one, including when we do agree as you often bring a different perspective to a similar conclusion. I don’t hate America, but I do think your criticism of its foreign policy has a lot of merit, and in my view the tendency to avoid unpleasant (and let’s just say it, immoral) realities is a far bigger problem than some kind of rampant America-hating (if indeed the latter is a problem to begin with). My ideal in this regard follows Rorty, even if I can’t say I am successful in following it https://adamgurri.com/2019/06/30/the-project-of-a-nation/
I've thought about this quite a bit too. Will Heterdox ultimately fall into the same traps as every other political tribe?
Blocked and Reported has mostly been pretty good about avoiding this, but I can't tell you guys how many times I've joined a group going "Finally! Nice to have fellow liberals push back on this Woke shit too!".... only to watch helplessly as that group goes further and further off the deep end to the point where they're indistinguishable from Fox News. It sucks.
Love it! It's easy for me, a Canadian, to indict the US for its sickening "foreign policy" actions; where I'm from, it's basically a tradition. It's harder, and more laudable, to do it as an American citizen--particularly one who's carved out a niche in the anti-woke set. Also very useful to construct the indictment as a list of common would-be excuses for the government's atrocities.
I feel like this issue may be more tricky than you consider here. I value independent thinking, but I also value "good" thinking.
My particular "red line" is COVID conspiracies. If you go down the Bret Weinstein route, if you are going to start spouting things about how COVID is really caused by lack of Vitamin D from lock downs, or that the Vaccine is part of some government conspiracy, it is going to raise serious questions in my mind about your ability to think about things and make me question whether you are really worth listening to on other topics. The alternative is Gell-Mann Amnesia.
This doesn't mean that I will reject everyone any time I find that I disagree with them on a particular topic. I'm very much not a socialist, let alone a Marxist. However, I don't find that your views on Marxism (or American Patriotism) are evidence that you are bad at processing information, just that we have different world views and have come to different conclusions based upon the available evidence.
There are also situations where I might see that someone is wrong on a topic, but I've seen them be right on enough other things, that I can remain reasonably confident that whatever is causing them to be wrong on that topic doesn't seem to span domains. If so, I may continue to be interested in listening to them on other topics, even if my degree of skepticism on those other topics may have increased somewhat.
I think the core issue is that ultimately it is up to an individual to open him or herself up to other viewpoints, even those with which they disagree, while still maintaining sufficient mastery of the self to see value in that person's thoughts and views. It's rare for a well-thought out perspective to have absolutely nothing of value to it. I actually enjoyed Freddie's Thanksgiving post even if I disagreed with it. After all, what's more American than having someone play the gadfly or turd in the punch bowl at the holidays?
My only real disagreement with FdB in this piece is that America has been uniquely bad in character, when I think the more accurate way to look at it is that we have been uniquely powerful in some very consequential ways. We aren't as special as being uniquely bad would grant us, but we are maybe more unique in that our system allows us the ability to do things about our misdeeds, and prevent future misdeeds, should we care to. And that's why it's important to keep talking about them.
Really if I had to give him crap about anything it would he unreconstructed Marxism, a philosophy designed to address 19th century problems, as a solution to 21st century challenges. But then all the more reason to read him. No one comes away stupider from any of the posts here, which I think is the best compliment one can give any writer.
earnest question from a new subscriber. I get some of this criticism about the modern US, what countries do you *do* like who you think are leading a different path?
To me being open minded means trying to understand ideas that aren’t your own to the point that you can explain them as if you really do believe them. This has lead me to change my opinions on big issues a few times in my life, and I’m glad it’s happened. I’m an ex-libertarian now leftist, for one. There are good arguments for all kinds of ideas and it’s healthy to get passed initial revulsion and really try to get it.
I think it's weird on a basic level to demand that thinkers you read on the internet to believe all the same things.
We are all different with different experiences. I tend to personally believe that Marxism is an enormous, often dangerous boon-doggle that's actually just a secular reinvention of Christian eschatology.
But what's the probability that it and it's adherents have absolutely nothing to offer? Marx profoundly shaped our idea of history and inspired millions of people to turn their societies upside down in the name of justice.
Thoughtful and intelligent people still think it has a tremendous amount to offfer. I'd have to be insane to believe there was nothing there!
Great post. I think we should cultivate the opposite attitude. If I, with my divergent life experience and personality think exactly the same as someone else about everything, something is wrong.
Thank you for this piece. But one question I have is what “deranged conspiracy theories” did Bret Weinstein spew about the vaccines? It seems people have a cartoonish and downright false view of his perspective and associate him with a lot of statements he’s never made. Most of what he’s actually said has turned out to be correct and when he’s gotten something wrong he’s owned that. Of course it was absolutely insane to want to mandate the vaccines, especially considering they never stopped transmission, which he and some others knew from the beginning, simply by reading the actual data from the manufacturers. The pushback and dehumanization he received for daring to question mandates and express concerns about the safety and efficacy of the vaccines was chilling beyond explanation. When he said “come back to the tribe” to Claire Lehman, that’s what he was referring to. Not that she need share his opinions or somehow be against the vaccine herself, but for her and others to stop the vicious and dehumanizing campaign against those who held a different view.
Well done. You touch on it a little but has anyone written anything on those who went heterodox and received so much positive attention from the other side that they seemingly switched views?
Most of this comes down to making excuses for Team D.
Note how the election of Obama neutered the antiwar movement better than anything Bush/Cheney ever could have done, and the election of Trump (who made some sensible noises before he got elected, along with a lot of asinine noises) turned goodthink liberals into rabid supporters of Muh National Security State.
For what it’s worth, I wasn’t surprised by the previous post and I’ve found you to be quite consistent in where you stand on things. I do read you precisely because your point of view is quite different from
mine in a number of respects, which is useful in more ways than one, including when we do agree as you often bring a different perspective to a similar conclusion. I don’t hate America, but I do think your criticism of its foreign policy has a lot of merit, and in my view the tendency to avoid unpleasant (and let’s just say it, immoral) realities is a far bigger problem than some kind of rampant America-hating (if indeed the latter is a problem to begin with). My ideal in this regard follows Rorty, even if I can’t say I am successful in following it https://adamgurri.com/2019/06/30/the-project-of-a-nation/
I've thought about this quite a bit too. Will Heterdox ultimately fall into the same traps as every other political tribe?
Blocked and Reported has mostly been pretty good about avoiding this, but I can't tell you guys how many times I've joined a group going "Finally! Nice to have fellow liberals push back on this Woke shit too!".... only to watch helplessly as that group goes further and further off the deep end to the point where they're indistinguishable from Fox News. It sucks.
Love it! It's easy for me, a Canadian, to indict the US for its sickening "foreign policy" actions; where I'm from, it's basically a tradition. It's harder, and more laudable, to do it as an American citizen--particularly one who's carved out a niche in the anti-woke set. Also very useful to construct the indictment as a list of common would-be excuses for the government's atrocities.
We don’t know how to deal with discomfort.
Well said
I feel like this issue may be more tricky than you consider here. I value independent thinking, but I also value "good" thinking.
My particular "red line" is COVID conspiracies. If you go down the Bret Weinstein route, if you are going to start spouting things about how COVID is really caused by lack of Vitamin D from lock downs, or that the Vaccine is part of some government conspiracy, it is going to raise serious questions in my mind about your ability to think about things and make me question whether you are really worth listening to on other topics. The alternative is Gell-Mann Amnesia.
This doesn't mean that I will reject everyone any time I find that I disagree with them on a particular topic. I'm very much not a socialist, let alone a Marxist. However, I don't find that your views on Marxism (or American Patriotism) are evidence that you are bad at processing information, just that we have different world views and have come to different conclusions based upon the available evidence.
There are also situations where I might see that someone is wrong on a topic, but I've seen them be right on enough other things, that I can remain reasonably confident that whatever is causing them to be wrong on that topic doesn't seem to span domains. If so, I may continue to be interested in listening to them on other topics, even if my degree of skepticism on those other topics may have increased somewhat.
Ultimately, it is a balancing test.
I think the core issue is that ultimately it is up to an individual to open him or herself up to other viewpoints, even those with which they disagree, while still maintaining sufficient mastery of the self to see value in that person's thoughts and views. It's rare for a well-thought out perspective to have absolutely nothing of value to it. I actually enjoyed Freddie's Thanksgiving post even if I disagreed with it. After all, what's more American than having someone play the gadfly or turd in the punch bowl at the holidays?
My only real disagreement with FdB in this piece is that America has been uniquely bad in character, when I think the more accurate way to look at it is that we have been uniquely powerful in some very consequential ways. We aren't as special as being uniquely bad would grant us, but we are maybe more unique in that our system allows us the ability to do things about our misdeeds, and prevent future misdeeds, should we care to. And that's why it's important to keep talking about them.
Really if I had to give him crap about anything it would he unreconstructed Marxism, a philosophy designed to address 19th century problems, as a solution to 21st century challenges. But then all the more reason to read him. No one comes away stupider from any of the posts here, which I think is the best compliment one can give any writer.
This is the subject I agree with you most on and why you came onto my radar many years ago.
Probably a good time and place for me to ask for recommendations for other writers with similar histories of principled independence.
This ability to go against the grain for years, despite all push-back, also seems to be what every Venture Capitalist says they look for in founders.
earnest question from a new subscriber. I get some of this criticism about the modern US, what countries do you *do* like who you think are leading a different path?
To me being open minded means trying to understand ideas that aren’t your own to the point that you can explain them as if you really do believe them. This has lead me to change my opinions on big issues a few times in my life, and I’m glad it’s happened. I’m an ex-libertarian now leftist, for one. There are good arguments for all kinds of ideas and it’s healthy to get passed initial revulsion and really try to get it.
I think it's weird on a basic level to demand that thinkers you read on the internet to believe all the same things.
We are all different with different experiences. I tend to personally believe that Marxism is an enormous, often dangerous boon-doggle that's actually just a secular reinvention of Christian eschatology.
But what's the probability that it and it's adherents have absolutely nothing to offer? Marx profoundly shaped our idea of history and inspired millions of people to turn their societies upside down in the name of justice.
Thoughtful and intelligent people still think it has a tremendous amount to offfer. I'd have to be insane to believe there was nothing there!
Great post. I think we should cultivate the opposite attitude. If I, with my divergent life experience and personality think exactly the same as someone else about everything, something is wrong.
Thank you for this piece. But one question I have is what “deranged conspiracy theories” did Bret Weinstein spew about the vaccines? It seems people have a cartoonish and downright false view of his perspective and associate him with a lot of statements he’s never made. Most of what he’s actually said has turned out to be correct and when he’s gotten something wrong he’s owned that. Of course it was absolutely insane to want to mandate the vaccines, especially considering they never stopped transmission, which he and some others knew from the beginning, simply by reading the actual data from the manufacturers. The pushback and dehumanization he received for daring to question mandates and express concerns about the safety and efficacy of the vaccines was chilling beyond explanation. When he said “come back to the tribe” to Claire Lehman, that’s what he was referring to. Not that she need share his opinions or somehow be against the vaccine herself, but for her and others to stop the vicious and dehumanizing campaign against those who held a different view.