Back when I was beginning to question my faith nearly 20 years ago, I wrote a poem from the perspective of grievance on the part of Mary for Jesus' callousness.
If I won't bend the knee to the dictates of Christ himself, I'm certainly not gonna do it for some rando on Twitter. That's when I started questioning my faith in social justice politics.
I’m sure there have been endless sermons and papers written dissecting what Jesus *really* meant and debates on the intricacies of the koine Greek translation. But even the soft-hearted empathetic The Message version says: “Anyone who comes to me but refuses to let go of father, mother, spouse, children, brothers, sisters—yes, even one’s own self!—can’t be my disciple.”
In regards to that Tweet, I can tell just by that woman's photo that she has questions, though they are probably more obtuse than pointed.
I guess that I'm lucky because my family is pretty open minded. We have a fair bit of diversity and no one seems to mind. But even if they weren't, there's no way I'm ruining my familial relationships at the behest of the timeline. The world is only going to get more volatile and if you think the timeline or abstract concepts of social justice are going to take care of you, then you are in for a rude awakening.
The Bending Cross is one of my favorite books and one I've recommended over and over again to young lefties. There's also a new one from Shawn Gude coming which is very intriguing.
Like many readers I had conflicted feelings about the Good White Men roster (felt guilty for enjoying it)--but god, Michael Hobbes deserved every word and more.
Now when I see one of his tweets I think “There’s that sneering shithead again.”
“Beacock’s argument is not that this is a bad perspective but rather that Mounk is attacking a strawman…Right now, the American left-of-center is engaged in a white-knuckled embrace of doomerism and bitterness.” Agreed. To a certain extent it’s machismo: I’m more doomy than you.
There’s always been a strain of pessimism on the left about pluralistic democracy, but right now it’s as bad as I’ve ever seen it. The whole 1619 thing, the idea that American society is an engine to perpetuate racism. Joe Conason once said to me, “the left needs to be more patriotic and less failure-oriented.” Yes.
But also I wonder how much it’s driven by ignorance of history and how much worse things used to be.
"You can’t say that it’s legitimate to hang the dopiest conservative critiques of social justice politics on the rest of us and then turn around and declare that you shouldn’t have to answer for, say, the woman who said that it was good that a child was eaten by an alligator because he was white. You hang those on me, I hang these on you"
I agree, but have to admit that the pessimism in the left is mostly justified. I think back to that scene towards the end of Easy Rider where Peter Fonda says "We blew it.". It hits different now, because I feel like we're in the same position. Whatever potential the resurgent left of the 2010s had was squandered. It's not much different from the hippie movement going belly up. All that stuff Hunter Thompson wrote about "with the right kind of eyes you could still see the high water mark.".
It's over, and will stay that way for a long time. I think that's one of many things I find most obnoxious about the woke crowd, they don't realize they've already hit the peak of their power And influence, that it's all downhill from here. They overplayed their hand and there's going to be hell to pay.
Annie Lowry at The Atlantic made a similar point a few weeks ago: we had 10+ years of easy, cheap money, higher unemployment after the Great Recession, and fairly strong bipartisan support for infrastructure. The ingredients were there to hire a bunch of workers with that cheap cash and build the shiny green future that progressives ostensibly want, but too often rejected because politicking is gross and rural white Republicans have cooties.
Over 60+ years I've seen a ton of objective changes to the positive both from a left and SJ perspective. The West is a far, far better place than it was in the 60s and the same is true for almost all of the world!
I guess that would depend on how you measure progress. It's more or less an objective fact that wealth distribution has become far worse. Regardless, it's pretty obvious to me that the hippies became mostly irrelevant as a political force after their late 60s heydey.
Of course, if you bring up the Woke movement's excesses, the anti-anti-woke will just brush it off like "Oh those are just minor people, minor incidents. They're not part of a larger trend. They don't matter."
No One is Saying quickly becomes No One Important is Saying at the drop of a hat. Sigh.
“The Iron Law of Institutions and the left” is a classic that deserves a home on Substack, either in the current or an updated form. It explains so much.
As a Gen Xer, I feel like I SOME of this trenchant pessimism (at least in my cohort) is really just one of our intrinsic personality traits. We're kinda cynical by nature. And I'm not sure that everyone in their 50's or so who seem to be rather 'doomsy' is a product of the these times, but rather a product of those times...40 years ago. We're just a bit more comfortable swimming in these dark currents than most.
Why that is is beyond me, maybe some cultural psychologist can answer that. What's strange about it is that the world didn't seem nearly so bleak then as it does now. In hindsight, it's sorta weird a lot of Xers are so dour...or at least more accepting of dour times. Our analog childhoods were mostly fun and adventurous, if a little lonely.
Sorry for the ramble, what I just wrote seems silly and personal all of a sudden.
I think secularism is only a small part of that, and maybe not a huge one either.
I put more stock in the general decline of American prosperity (especially the middle class), environmental existentialism (whether real or not), and the plain old internet.
Only in the last 20 years or so have humans been able to instantly see and hear things all over the globe at the same time. Every single war or conflict or any kind of violence whatsoever is at our literal fingertips now. That level of unfiltered instantaneous input, especially when unchecked, has to have at least something to do with our younger generation feeling so damn emotional distraught over things all the time. It can't just be a lack of religion.
Freddy, I admire your persistence but when you see this amount of dysfunction, don't you think it's a symptom of a fundamental crisis? Many have moved on from either side and those remaining are diehards, who excel in ever greater absurd discourse and alienation of anyone who voices a WTF is happening question.
It's two sides fighting over who gets to captain the Titanic - sane folks are jumping into the few lifeboats provided. There has to be a better way.
Yeah, to me it looks like a large fraction of leftist discourse was either funded or ghost written by Karl Rove. He certainly couldn't have done it better...
My “anti-woke/anti-anti-woke” bugaboos (which I share without any hope of financial or non-financial reward, save the catharsis of typing them using my overly large thumbs into this stupid hand-held device that I think does as much or more harm as good to society) are:
1. Monoliths. Flattening any group of people into one, large morass and ascribing characteristics to them, particularly when many of those attributes are stereotypical and largely unfalsifiable, is wrong. It is lazy minded rhetorical expediency that robs everyone lumped into that group of agency and individuality.
2. Proportionality. I like that word. It indicates their should be a commensurate level of response to a perceived issue. Versus indulging in outsized and hyperbolic mischaracterizations of word and/or deed, swiftly followed by outright character assassinations devoid of substance and without self-awareness or self-reflection.
3. Illiberalism. If someone tells me I am obligated to support their preferences as they pertain to either word or deed, fuck them. They are self-entitled, wearisome fucks. I don’t owe anyone a goddamn thing and no one can compel my behavior, certainly not under duress. I simply ask that they, whoever they are, leave me the fuck alone, and try an cobble together some of the tolerance or whatever they are trying to compel from me.
4. Language. Inventing new terms and constantly evolving the definition and connotation of exiting ones to suit one’s rhetorically despotic machinations is a delight for all concerned. It certain aids and abets making arguments when those engaging in this foolishness can change the English language whenever it suits them.
5. Omniscience. I adore people who express fervent opinions about others, either collectively or individually, particularly (although not exclusively) negative opinions when they don’t know those about whom they speak and are, in most cases, responding to second hand accounts of asserted behaviors. Again, frequently without a soupçon of self-reflection (lobbing stones in glass houses and all that) or with consideration of any positive attributes or actions previously evidenced. They know, with certitude, that they are right about the object of their outrage, apparently possessed of divine knowledge and oracular powers. The arrogance of this type of person is breathtaking and they are among the most wearisome of all those I hold in contempt. Imperfect though they may be, they offer no redemption or grace to anyone and they suck the joy out of life and are a misery for those around them.
Thanks, Mr. deBoer, for your thoughtful treatise about ignorant, self-indulgent, tiresome people who elevate politics above all else to the dismay and fatigue of all with whom they interact. I enjoyed reading it and am grateful to have the benefit of your perspective.
Only if your bullet point titles are Monoliths, Proportionality, Illiberalism, Language, and Omniscience.
But thanks for taking on that project! Your fellow socialists have dropped that particular ball (among many other similar balls) for the past century and a half, well past time one of you picked it up. If you ever expect to get above single-digit public support, you need to explain how the fuck you're going to run things after the Glorious People's Revolution that you're all pining for.
It is amazing to me how little salience is given to the grayness of all real people. Scratch the surface of any real world people and you will find infinite examples of people far, far, far from your political position doing good acts that leave one humbled. Once I've got to know them well enough I've never met anyone so bad that they didn't have redeeming qualities and vice versa.
In politics we just don't appeal in an honest way to the better sides of even our worst opponents... We just won't build bridges, which, as Freddie says, is how one wins, issue by issue and person by person.
For example, when you start out calling (and thinking of) huge fractions of the population who are mostly to the right of you as evil-deplorable, how are you ever going to get their support for maternity leave improvements, which many, many otherwise support. You sacrifice real tangible benefits for most Americans to maintain your sense of righteousness.
You’re fighting the good fight. #goodtrouble
It’s almost like Quakerism, really.
Back when I was beginning to question my faith nearly 20 years ago, I wrote a poem from the perspective of grievance on the part of Mary for Jesus' callousness.
If I won't bend the knee to the dictates of Christ himself, I'm certainly not gonna do it for some rando on Twitter. That's when I started questioning my faith in social justice politics.
He never calls, He never writes.
And when is he going to settle down with a nice girl?
I heard He was dating Nola Me Tangere. Sounds Italian. 🤔
For 50+ years I've misread this verse! I never "saw" that it was about hating X, Y, and Z being needed...
I’m sure there have been endless sermons and papers written dissecting what Jesus *really* meant and debates on the intricacies of the koine Greek translation. But even the soft-hearted empathetic The Message version says: “Anyone who comes to me but refuses to let go of father, mother, spouse, children, brothers, sisters—yes, even one’s own self!—can’t be my disciple.”
But I somehow missed it, sigh
Who says that the rewards have to be purely financial?
Attention is currency for attention-seekers.
That's why I do all my stripping at Applebee's. There's no money in it but plenty of attention.
Which one? Asking for a friend.
That said, most of the human strippers I have known have definitely liked the attention.
I have a Facebook page where I update my Applebee's locations, like food trucks have.
I got kicked off FB. :(
And today I got kicked off the Applebee's fan page
This is great, but is there a link in here to the New Republic piece being discussed?
hang on
In regards to that Tweet, I can tell just by that woman's photo that she has questions, though they are probably more obtuse than pointed.
I guess that I'm lucky because my family is pretty open minded. We have a fair bit of diversity and no one seems to mind. But even if they weren't, there's no way I'm ruining my familial relationships at the behest of the timeline. The world is only going to get more volatile and if you think the timeline or abstract concepts of social justice are going to take care of you, then you are in for a rude awakening.
They may be isosceles. Don’t be angleist.
It’s not my job to educate you.
Multi-level marketers demand you abuse your personal relationships for the good of your upstream.
Political extremists are the same.
Wokeness as MLM. There’s something in that.
What's wrong with her photo? I don't think what she looks like has anything to do with the objectionable thing she's saying.
It's a joke. Remember when it used to be OK to make those?
I guess I didn't get it.
Just listened to your great conversation with BW. Thank you for that, and all your work. I think you're one of the most important voices out there.
Wondering if you could recommend the best biography of Eugene Deb. Your mention kinda got me thinking about him again.
The Bending Cross is one of my favorite books and one I've recommended over and over again to young lefties. There's also a new one from Shawn Gude coming which is very intriguing.
Thank you!! This old leftie ;) just ordered it
Can we just exile the Woke project back to academia and get back to class? Oh, no, because the oligarchs want us divided by identity and not by class.
Can't have a return of Occupy Wall Street or the Tea Party. If we did, we even be like Sri Lanka....
And it would be so great to be like Sri Lanka!
“My dear, dear friend Michael Hobbes“
This alone was worth the price of admission.
Like many readers I had conflicted feelings about the Good White Men roster (felt guilty for enjoying it)--but god, Michael Hobbes deserved every word and more.
Now when I see one of his tweets I think “There’s that sneering shithead again.”
But then you always have been too charitable.
Remember how Hobbes, a gay man, has all the correct opinions on women's rights?
He’s on brand every single day.
Gaysplaining > Femmesplaining. Sorry, laydihz. *womp womp*
I have NO idea what this even means, but for some strange reason I really like it!
I suppose there are worse people in the world. but Michael is truly the person on the planet that gets under my skin the most.
Same here. The most sneering, haughty pundit on the "left" I've ever seen.
I had a similar response to the inclusion of the lesser-known Eoin Higgins.
“Beacock’s argument is not that this is a bad perspective but rather that Mounk is attacking a strawman…Right now, the American left-of-center is engaged in a white-knuckled embrace of doomerism and bitterness.” Agreed. To a certain extent it’s machismo: I’m more doomy than you.
There’s always been a strain of pessimism on the left about pluralistic democracy, but right now it’s as bad as I’ve ever seen it. The whole 1619 thing, the idea that American society is an engine to perpetuate racism. Joe Conason once said to me, “the left needs to be more patriotic and less failure-oriented.” Yes.
But also I wonder how much it’s driven by ignorance of history and how much worse things used to be.
"You can’t say that it’s legitimate to hang the dopiest conservative critiques of social justice politics on the rest of us and then turn around and declare that you shouldn’t have to answer for, say, the woman who said that it was good that a child was eaten by an alligator because he was white. You hang those on me, I hang these on you"
Reminds me of this Slate Star Codex article: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweapons/
Thank you for sharing, that was interesting
Yes, thank you! That was a very interesting article!
I agree, but have to admit that the pessimism in the left is mostly justified. I think back to that scene towards the end of Easy Rider where Peter Fonda says "We blew it.". It hits different now, because I feel like we're in the same position. Whatever potential the resurgent left of the 2010s had was squandered. It's not much different from the hippie movement going belly up. All that stuff Hunter Thompson wrote about "with the right kind of eyes you could still see the high water mark.".
It's over, and will stay that way for a long time. I think that's one of many things I find most obnoxious about the woke crowd, they don't realize they've already hit the peak of their power And influence, that it's all downhill from here. They overplayed their hand and there's going to be hell to pay.
Annie Lowry at The Atlantic made a similar point a few weeks ago: we had 10+ years of easy, cheap money, higher unemployment after the Great Recession, and fairly strong bipartisan support for infrastructure. The ingredients were there to hire a bunch of workers with that cheap cash and build the shiny green future that progressives ostensibly want, but too often rejected because politicking is gross and rural white Republicans have cooties.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/06/us-economy-suffering-infrastructure-energy-housing/661389/
I love the cooties comment!
Over 60+ years I've seen a ton of objective changes to the positive both from a left and SJ perspective. The West is a far, far better place than it was in the 60s and the same is true for almost all of the world!
I guess that would depend on how you measure progress. It's more or less an objective fact that wealth distribution has become far worse. Regardless, it's pretty obvious to me that the hippies became mostly irrelevant as a political force after their late 60s heydey.
Tom Hanks is gonna have to answer for Forrest Gump and Bosom Buddies, too. I won't rest until justice is done.
Can you imagine if Forest Gump came out today? Activists wouldn’t rest until everyone involved had been banished from Hollywood for life.
Last time I checked, Gary Sinese had both legs. Why aren't we talking about this?!
Enough *talking* more *doing*.
I've got my bone saw.
Not even half-retard would cut it
But you're totally fine with Philadelphia? Glad to see you're okay with cishet white men appropriating roles for homosexuals.
If it’s endorsed by Neil Young then it’s good enough for me.
Of course, if you bring up the Woke movement's excesses, the anti-anti-woke will just brush it off like "Oh those are just minor people, minor incidents. They're not part of a larger trend. They don't matter."
No One is Saying quickly becomes No One Important is Saying at the drop of a hat. Sigh.
"if being anti-woke is a grift, being anti-anti-woke is also a grift"
This seems to be ill-phrased, since it looks like it's saying that pointing out a grift is a grift itself.
How many grifts could a grifter grift if a grifter could grift grifts?
Hah! This is peak-Erin, in the best sense.
Coming soon to your neighborhood Applebee's: Peek Erin.
That's solid.
“The Iron Law of Institutions and the left” is a classic that deserves a home on Substack, either in the current or an updated form. It explains so much.
As a Gen Xer, I feel like I SOME of this trenchant pessimism (at least in my cohort) is really just one of our intrinsic personality traits. We're kinda cynical by nature. And I'm not sure that everyone in their 50's or so who seem to be rather 'doomsy' is a product of the these times, but rather a product of those times...40 years ago. We're just a bit more comfortable swimming in these dark currents than most.
Why that is is beyond me, maybe some cultural psychologist can answer that. What's strange about it is that the world didn't seem nearly so bleak then as it does now. In hindsight, it's sorta weird a lot of Xers are so dour...or at least more accepting of dour times. Our analog childhoods were mostly fun and adventurous, if a little lonely.
Sorry for the ramble, what I just wrote seems silly and personal all of a sudden.
I think secularism is only a small part of that, and maybe not a huge one either.
I put more stock in the general decline of American prosperity (especially the middle class), environmental existentialism (whether real or not), and the plain old internet.
Only in the last 20 years or so have humans been able to instantly see and hear things all over the globe at the same time. Every single war or conflict or any kind of violence whatsoever is at our literal fingertips now. That level of unfiltered instantaneous input, especially when unchecked, has to have at least something to do with our younger generation feeling so damn emotional distraught over things all the time. It can't just be a lack of religion.
A think a childhood that's "a little lonely" is perfect fodder for a gloomy outlook. It certainly was in my case.
Perhaps, but I don't think that can nearly explain all of it.
Freddy, I admire your persistence but when you see this amount of dysfunction, don't you think it's a symptom of a fundamental crisis? Many have moved on from either side and those remaining are diehards, who excel in ever greater absurd discourse and alienation of anyone who voices a WTF is happening question.
It's two sides fighting over who gets to captain the Titanic - sane folks are jumping into the few lifeboats provided. There has to be a better way.
Yeah, to me it looks like a large fraction of leftist discourse was either funded or ghost written by Karl Rove. He certainly couldn't have done it better...
My “anti-woke/anti-anti-woke” bugaboos (which I share without any hope of financial or non-financial reward, save the catharsis of typing them using my overly large thumbs into this stupid hand-held device that I think does as much or more harm as good to society) are:
1. Monoliths. Flattening any group of people into one, large morass and ascribing characteristics to them, particularly when many of those attributes are stereotypical and largely unfalsifiable, is wrong. It is lazy minded rhetorical expediency that robs everyone lumped into that group of agency and individuality.
2. Proportionality. I like that word. It indicates their should be a commensurate level of response to a perceived issue. Versus indulging in outsized and hyperbolic mischaracterizations of word and/or deed, swiftly followed by outright character assassinations devoid of substance and without self-awareness or self-reflection.
3. Illiberalism. If someone tells me I am obligated to support their preferences as they pertain to either word or deed, fuck them. They are self-entitled, wearisome fucks. I don’t owe anyone a goddamn thing and no one can compel my behavior, certainly not under duress. I simply ask that they, whoever they are, leave me the fuck alone, and try an cobble together some of the tolerance or whatever they are trying to compel from me.
4. Language. Inventing new terms and constantly evolving the definition and connotation of exiting ones to suit one’s rhetorically despotic machinations is a delight for all concerned. It certain aids and abets making arguments when those engaging in this foolishness can change the English language whenever it suits them.
5. Omniscience. I adore people who express fervent opinions about others, either collectively or individually, particularly (although not exclusively) negative opinions when they don’t know those about whom they speak and are, in most cases, responding to second hand accounts of asserted behaviors. Again, frequently without a soupçon of self-reflection (lobbing stones in glass houses and all that) or with consideration of any positive attributes or actions previously evidenced. They know, with certitude, that they are right about the object of their outrage, apparently possessed of divine knowledge and oracular powers. The arrogance of this type of person is breathtaking and they are among the most wearisome of all those I hold in contempt. Imperfect though they may be, they offer no redemption or grace to anyone and they suck the joy out of life and are a misery for those around them.
Thanks, Mr. deBoer, for your thoughtful treatise about ignorant, self-indulgent, tiresome people who elevate politics above all else to the dismay and fatigue of all with whom they interact. I enjoyed reading it and am grateful to have the benefit of your perspective.
This should have more upvotes.
It's tl;dr for me.
Only if your bullet point titles are Monoliths, Proportionality, Illiberalism, Language, and Omniscience.
But thanks for taking on that project! Your fellow socialists have dropped that particular ball (among many other similar balls) for the past century and a half, well past time one of you picked it up. If you ever expect to get above single-digit public support, you need to explain how the fuck you're going to run things after the Glorious People's Revolution that you're all pining for.
Thank you very much!
Yes!
It is amazing to me how little salience is given to the grayness of all real people. Scratch the surface of any real world people and you will find infinite examples of people far, far, far from your political position doing good acts that leave one humbled. Once I've got to know them well enough I've never met anyone so bad that they didn't have redeeming qualities and vice versa.
In politics we just don't appeal in an honest way to the better sides of even our worst opponents... We just won't build bridges, which, as Freddie says, is how one wins, issue by issue and person by person.
For example, when you start out calling (and thinking of) huge fractions of the population who are mostly to the right of you as evil-deplorable, how are you ever going to get their support for maternity leave improvements, which many, many otherwise support. You sacrifice real tangible benefits for most Americans to maintain your sense of righteousness.
But...but...conservatives are like...the dark side! They are all monsters I tell ya...Monsters!
This fits my thundercloud mood beautifully today. Also nice use of soupçon.