I dunno if I'm with you on this one... most tourist traps are bad, not because they're tourist traps but because the experience itself just isnt very nice.
For example, the London equivalent would be Trafalgar Square. I would tell people not to go there cos it's like Angus Steakhouse and The M&M Store.
There's plenty of super tourist trap stuff I would tell people to do, because it's actually fun/interesting: Crown Jewels, London Eye, The Prime Meridian etc.
I haven't been there personally, but if it's anything like most of the similar tourist traps I've been to the experience you get in a place like Times Square doesnt doesnt seem fun, not as a snob but just like "lets go to a super busy place where I can look at some billboards and eat expensive chain-resturant food"
No Trafalgar Square because it is "touristy"? Good heavens, no National Gallery, no St Martins in the Fields concerts, no Nelson column, no lions, no pigeons. Just don't go when the loony leftists are protesting one thing or another . . . and shield your eyes from what passes for "modern" art that is now hoisted on the pedestals.
I think the underlying assumption of the piece is that the putative tourist actually wants to go to Times Square.
If I have interpreted correctly, I think Freddie is right that if you are excited to do a thing you should do it and not agonize about the optics. As a frequent visitor to NYC but not a resident (nb I am not from the city, but I’ll fight you if you say I am not a New Yorker. #upstate!) I am not excited about Times Square either — but I get that other people are, and I agree it’s an obnoxiously pretentious move to look down on people for wanting to see it.
I mean, I’ve seen Cats on Broadway, so who am I to judge? ;-)
I mean Times Square is the most visited tourist destination in the world. It's very much A Thing. Someone who leaves their Wichita suburb to visit NYC once in their life should go simply to see it, to scratch that off their life list. The beauty of it is that, unlike some major tourist destinations, there's no time commitment or great burden to get there; if you arrive and say "this sucks," walk 10 minutes and you're in one of the greatest parks in the country, or at a cool bar, or in a museum.
Ah gotcha... its more the shobbish attitude to even going there at all to see it, rather than the practicality of what it actually is, that makes sense :D
I basically did the same when I went to Colosseum in Rome. Total shitshow and hours of waiting, so I just went "Yep, thats the thing" went off to go eat and find some other culture to look at.
What gets lost in the “don’t be a tourist” thing is the simple fact that if you’re not a tourist most cities are pretty boring. I have lived in Seattle, Chicago, and Phoenix over the last three years. All are remarkably different cities in theory, but when you’re just a resident life really isn’t much different between the three. Ya the restaurants and event locales are a bit different (and Phoenix has hiking), but they are all just normal-ass cities. Tourist draws are interesting because they tell the story of the city that residents don’t want to or need to hear. They also provide a fun exaggerated stereotype of the city culture and environment. Like if you come to Phoenix you 1000% should hike Camelback, visit Sonoran National Park, and see the Grand Canyon. A saguaro cactus may be super normal to a resident but to someone from New York they are among the most insane and beautiful plants you’ll ever see.
Agreed on this take! I've lived in the same city my whole life. When people are gonna be tourists here they ask me my favorite places in the city. I'm like "I mostly just hang out at my buddy Tom's place? I'm not sure that's what you mean though."
The Grand Canyon is a great example of a tourist destination that is actually remarkable despite the hype. I've heard people scoff at the Grand Canyon as a tourist trap, but it's breathtaking! Legitimately one of the most incredible things you'll ever see.
THIS. If you aren't doing the tourist stuff in cities as a tourist, I'm really not sure what you're supposed to be doing. Attending underground raves? What is it people are anxious to do? Why would you come to NY and avoid Broadway shows? They're great, that's why they're popular, but more to the point, if you don't want to do that shit, spending the money on a trip to NYC isn't going to net you much.
I don't travel much, but I used to have that sort of "I don't want to be a tourist!" insistence when I did. I went to Ireland a few years back with my wife and I insisted we avoid tourist-y activities. So we spent a couple aimless and boring days just kinda wandering. I don't know what I expected -- did I think we'd walk into a pub and Bono would be sitting at the bar like "Wow, you're not like all the other tourists!"
Eventually my wife put her foot down and said we were going on a tourist-y bus tour. It was much better -- we saw some pretty/interesting sites, the driver had a good and well-honed routine, we talked to some other nice/pleasant tourists.
Don’t worry about being a library bore; I actually have Freddie’s book checked out via the Phoenix public library as we speak. Seattle is particularly nice because it has event passes - a library that can get me into the zoo is wonderful.
I think these are one of the best thing libraries do. We are "hooked up" with museums via U.S. Institute of Museums & Library Services so try to support each other.
I am so charmed by this depiction of your father that I am struggling to take away anything else at all from the essay, which is fine because the portrait of your father was more than enough. He sounds like an utterly delightful man, though probably rather difficult to live with. I re-read the opening paragraphs just to enjoy reading about him all over again.
He was a lot. He was an incredibly loving and gentle father. He was also a brutal drunk and an addict who was out of control for most of the time I shared the earth with him, which was especially unfortunate given that our mother had died when I was quite young. But he was a remarkable person and I wouldn't change anything.
Out of curiosity, do you recall your father ever interacting with the Japanese puppet theater Bunraku? It happens to be the East Asian puppet theater I know best. I've seen one traditional show, though it suffered some for me by not having a live translation, got to tour one theater and see the puppets, and seen one adaptation of the techniques using a Bunraku puppet of Moses doing a mix of biblical drama and modern comedy.
It's an interesting form, notable for the puppeteers appearing on stage in all black and the audience simply tuning them out. In my very limited experience, I found Kabuki to be more accessible on the whole, though for non-Japanese speakers I think the availability of translation would trump the form between the two. One other fun fact, the 47 Ronin / loyal retainers is perhaps one of the best known pieces of the form, huge action piece and apparently is the classic a theater will break out to ensure a big crowd when finances are troubled. I have no idea how many Ronin are ever on stage at once, but I'd love to see it some day.
When I lived in “the city” It was very popular for residents to wear I heart NYC t-shirts. I would also often ask for directions as I was always mixing up my north, south, east and west and noticed that New Yorkers, before iPhones, loved giving directions. Not sure if it is the same now. Tourist-y stuff can be fun. I love Broadway musicals and some of those huge amazing pop culture shops in Time Square.
My last 30 years were spent organizing and leading group tours of Europe and the Middle East. Inevitably someone had read the advice that the greatest faux pas was to dress and act like "a tourist." My response was exactly like Freddie's: "For G-d's sake, you are a tourist!"
"But the key phrase there is as a resident of New York. Saying that tourists should avoid it, or advising them to go through all of this rigmarole to appear to be some sort of vaguely more enlightened tourist, would seem to have a lot more to do with the kind of New Yorker the people giving this advice want to appear to be."
So I've also noticed this phenomenon, and to take it a step further - the people "I hate Times Squaring" the hardest are generally people who have lived here for only a few years and are trying to establish their "real New Yorker" credibility either with others or internally. I kinda sympathize with those people, even if they're just going through the motions.
I like Times Square, it's weird, there are no cars, you can people watch, it's always changing but always the same place. I used to work nearby and would often eat my lunch there. Also, Jimmy's Corner is one of the best bars in Manhattan and a great place to take tourists.
Yes it is generally a phenomenon of those who feel like they still have something to prove. Which is odd! Do you get mail here, pay taxes here? Congratulations, you "really" live here.
When I was backpacking like 15 years ago, one of the most common refrains was 'I'm not a tourist, I'm a traveller.' I still don't really know what that means, but the people who said it were invariably incredibly obnoxious.
A couple years back I stayed in a few backpackers' hostels again, and those same people were giving out business cards with their social media channels on them...
I have lived in Manhattan most of my adult life and go to Times Square often, primarily because my wife and I go to the theater a lot. I like it - it’s colorful and there are lots of people enjoying family time. There are also a couple decent huge movie theaters I’ve taken my kids to when movies weren’t playing by us and a few good bars and restaurants. With Broadway closed I’ve missed it quite a bit, and was happy to go back for the first time a couple weeks ago.
When I first visited New York, I did all of the most touristy things and loved every minute of it, especially Times Square. It's a genuine feast for the senses. I also took a bus tour around Manhattan, did the Top of the Rock tour, took the Staten Island ferry and rode the subway everywhere. I stayed in a hotel near Central Park so got to walk around there every morning. Anyone who'd deny themselves fun like that is being foolish.
Last time I went to NYC I hailed a cab and asked him to just drive me around to places he found interesting. The cabby nearly lost his mind that I didn't have a specific place I wanted to go to. I kept saying "I don't care how much it costs, I'll pay you, just drive me around. Take me to the park or whatever is a tourist place so I can see the city." He could not cope with that - couldn't cope with not having a specific destination to get to immediately.
It was such a weird experience. I couldn't understand why this guy didn't just drive around and let me pay him, but he was so uncomfortable that I ended up getting out after about 10 minutes.
I could not get out of that city fast enough. It vibrates as a frequency that I cannot tolerate.
A steady stream of short rides is most profitable. Plus NY has a lot of unspoken customs about how things work. People who deviate from these are looked on with suspicion. Sometimes for good reason.
I don't think his reaction is surprising at all. The guy has a job he does every day and tourist guide isn't that job - this isn't like asking a waiter what their favorite dessert on the menu is. He might not even like Manhattan or have any places he finds interesting.
I didn't ask him to be a guide. I literally just asked him to drive around, said I quite literally did not care, and I'm pretty sure driving around is his job. Crikey. This is exactly why I've never been inclined to go back.
Look, I don't think you broke some deep and important social rule here, there's probably some cabbie out there who is dying to give someone a tour of the city. But it really shouldn't be that hard to understand that someone who's entire job is to go from point A to point B in insane traffic gets stressed out when point B disappears and he's now responsible for someone else's entertainment.
Look. I think you're stretching by claiming that a cabby who drives in NYC traffic day in and day out suddenly lost his shit because of traffic. I don't understand the inclination to recast my story in some light that makes more sense. It didn't make sense. I offered to pay him to drive around NYC, presumably his job. I offered to pay him double when he started getting agitated, and that still didn't calm him down. I did not ask him to "entertain" me - I asked him to drive. And I got out when it was clearly something he didn't want to do.
My point, which only seems to be confirmed here, is that there is a mentality in NYC - some unspoken force driving people to move in ways that I don't understand - and it caused my cabby a weird level of stress even though I was offering to compensate him to drive.
All this to say, it's a weird place filled with weird people and it's not for me. And that's okay.
Okay, this can go on forever, so this is my last one. I don't think it's hard to understand why telling someone to 'just drive around Manhattan' would be weird and a bit stressful, even if someone spends their whole life driving around Manhattan. And I think pinning this all on some universal New Yorker mentality is too easy, and it's worth reflecting on:
a. If there's something meaningfully different between asking someone to cruise around Manhattan and just about anywhere else in America
b. If a lot of human beings across the world who do a certain job all day would be weirded out when you ask them to do something out of the ordinary
Most cabbies today are immigrants just trying to make a buck. They don't expect to interact with you much or to have to make any decisions. That's the context you were walking into and maybe one you weren't prepared for. It's substantially different than walking up to a random New Yorker doorman and asking for some fun things to do nearby - 9 times out of 10 they'd be considerably nicer and less neurotic than you would expect.
All of this stuff might just fall into the 'weird place with weird people' for you, but I think you can have more enjoyable trips in the future if you try to understand the context of the weird places with weird people.
> It vibrates as a frequency that I cannot tolerate.
I think one possible way to better understand why people that live or work here might react as your cabbie did is that being here for an extended time _requires_ you to (carefully) ignore almost everything – there's too much otherwise to possibly pay attention to.
But I think you're very right about the 'frequency' – I often have to 'modulate' my own frequency when I visit other places, e.g. walk slower, be more patient with other people walking slowly or making idle chit-chat, and making eye contact (or even greeting!) strangers on the street.
If memory serves, one of the ways NYC cabbies can get in real trouble is by driving tourists around on roundabout routes to their destinations to jack up their fares. I'm pretty sure that you have an absolute right to decide your route so as to avoid that. Possibly the guy thought you were going to scam him. Have him drive you around for an hour, and then, wherever you get dropped off, you could tell him you weren't paying, and if he tried to make you you'd have his medallion for trying to rip you off.
As an example of the negation of this, I've been to NYC four times - all for some reason - and have never done any of the touristy stuff. I think it sucks (except parts of Brooklyn). It's just a more crowded Philadelphia.
Now, I'm sure if I got to have your experience I would've loved it. That sounds like a lot of fun!
A lot of the touristy stuff in NY is great: Bronx Zoo, Yankee Stadium, Metropolitan Museum of Art, Central Park, Chinatown, Little Italy (in the Bronx), Guggenheim, walking the Brooklyn Bridge, the Cloisters, Grand Central Station, NY Public Library, etc etc etc
Yeah, that stood out to me too. I don't even know what that means. I lived in NY for 20 years and had white sneakers for at least some of them. Nobody ever commented.
First of all, shadow puppets are amazing and I love them.
Second, yes tourists should absolutely do tourist things that they can't do elsewhere. I live in New York and I always tell visitors to go to an observation deck (either Empire State or One World Trade) and to take a boat in the harbor (Governors Island, Liberty Island, hell even the Staten Island Ferry) to see views they won't see anywhere else. That point is the most important one, something you won't see anywhere else. That's why the one local specialty that matters is restaurant recommendations. When I go to Kansas City sure I'll go to Arthur Bryant's but I also want to know about the secret local spots because they have food I won't get anywhere else.
Third, the one place I diverge from you is the sidewalk thing. I used to live a block away from Times Square and it was very pleasant for the most part (so many trains go there!) The biggest problem with the tourists is that they don't know how to use the sidewalk. Which is to be expected, as many of them have little experience walking on sidewalks. I would tell them to treat it the same way you treat being in a car on the road: It's totally fine to want to stop to look at something, but you have to pull over. Do not stop in the middle of the sidewalk. That's my biggest out-of-towner peeve.
I've lived in New York for 5 years and a few months. My mother visits me every year from the suburban South, and she demands to go and see Times Square every year. She loves it, which I find pretty cute. I usually wind up in the area if I'm trying to see a show, personally.
In general, some of what you are describing feels to me as very specific to New York. For a certain group of people, especially those who moved here in their 20s, living here becomes something of an identity. The people I am describing become irrationally over-protective of the city, resistant to change, and frequently a little snobby. If you can't tell, I am also criticizing myself here.
I don't think this dynamic is necessarily exclusive to NYC, but of all the places I have lived, it feels the strongest here. Move to New York from the Midwest in 2016, and by 2018, you're acting like Fran Lebowitz.
So many of the New Yorkers who whine about tourists are themselves part of the crowds in Amsterdam, Barcelona, and Bali that are "ruining" those places. One of the other things I noticed after moving here from the Midwest was that all of my friends traveled all of the time, and there was a mild social expectation that people should be exploring new places and leaving the city as often as possible. This was a bitter irony because I was already spending more money to live here..
I agree that tourists should be tourists - that's the POINT - but I always thought that the advice to avoid Times Square was because it sucks.
I lived in Manhattan for just shy of 20 years; I live in the suburbs now and work in Times Square. It's kind of a daily nightmare, or was way back when I used to have to actually go to work to go to work. It isn't the tourists who bother me, though. Like Freddie, I've always found that New Yorkers mostly LIKE tourists. If you live in a place you're usually proud of it and want to show it off. And tourists are typically in a good mood! What's not to like?
It's the New Yorkers in Times Square that make me glad I don't have a gun. Every dick that blows pot smoke in my face or impatiently pushes ahead of me on the street because it's so much more important that they catch their train than it is that I catch mine really makes me yearn for the country. We didn't move nearly far enough away.
I've only been to NYC once, and Times Square was the worst part of the whole trip. Do all the touristy stuff, but don't go to Times Square since it sucks.
I love this. And good lord, some of those “guides” made me vomit on my phone. It’s so embarrassing when Americans move to NYC and then sneer at everyone who doesn’t live there. NYC is a cool place, but you didn’t build it with your hands. You moved there. Congratulations. Get a life.
Your father sounds awesome. I can see where you got your dislike of pretentious gatekeepers. (Genetics)
I have a friend who grew up in Brooklyn. I was visiting him one day and I asked him "Why does everyone I meet in Manhattan act like they live at the center of the universe?" His reply was that if you were paying that much in rent, you'd need to convince yourself of that too.
I was amused by the sign about New York, “the greatest city in the world” in Hamilton. It very much wasn’t, particularly in the time contemporary to Hamilton. I guess it’s like how when any musicians or athletes play in New York they’re always like “I love you New York this is the greatest crowd in the world!”
Back in the early 2000s, I went to a Davis Cup tournament in my town (Winston-Salem). There was an insane amount of very-non-traditionally-tennis-like cheering, chanting, applause, etc. At the end Andy Roddick said it was literally the best crowd he’d ever played for. But I mean we’re no New York.
NYPL, QPL, Brooklyn PL.
I dunno if I'm with you on this one... most tourist traps are bad, not because they're tourist traps but because the experience itself just isnt very nice.
For example, the London equivalent would be Trafalgar Square. I would tell people not to go there cos it's like Angus Steakhouse and The M&M Store.
There's plenty of super tourist trap stuff I would tell people to do, because it's actually fun/interesting: Crown Jewels, London Eye, The Prime Meridian etc.
I haven't been there personally, but if it's anything like most of the similar tourist traps I've been to the experience you get in a place like Times Square doesnt doesnt seem fun, not as a snob but just like "lets go to a super busy place where I can look at some billboards and eat expensive chain-resturant food"
No Trafalgar Square because it is "touristy"? Good heavens, no National Gallery, no St Martins in the Fields concerts, no Nelson column, no lions, no pigeons. Just don't go when the loony leftists are protesting one thing or another . . . and shield your eyes from what passes for "modern" art that is now hoisted on the pedestals.
hah, I got Trafalgar square mixed up with Leister Square, Trafalgar square I would say everyone should see :)
I think the underlying assumption of the piece is that the putative tourist actually wants to go to Times Square.
If I have interpreted correctly, I think Freddie is right that if you are excited to do a thing you should do it and not agonize about the optics. As a frequent visitor to NYC but not a resident (nb I am not from the city, but I’ll fight you if you say I am not a New Yorker. #upstate!) I am not excited about Times Square either — but I get that other people are, and I agree it’s an obnoxiously pretentious move to look down on people for wanting to see it.
I mean, I’ve seen Cats on Broadway, so who am I to judge? ;-)
I mean Times Square is the most visited tourist destination in the world. It's very much A Thing. Someone who leaves their Wichita suburb to visit NYC once in their life should go simply to see it, to scratch that off their life list. The beauty of it is that, unlike some major tourist destinations, there's no time commitment or great burden to get there; if you arrive and say "this sucks," walk 10 minutes and you're in one of the greatest parks in the country, or at a cool bar, or in a museum.
Ah gotcha... its more the shobbish attitude to even going there at all to see it, rather than the practicality of what it actually is, that makes sense :D
I basically did the same when I went to Colosseum in Rome. Total shitshow and hours of waiting, so I just went "Yep, thats the thing" went off to go eat and find some other culture to look at.
but yeah tl;dr fuck the optics, its your holiday, do what you want
What gets lost in the “don’t be a tourist” thing is the simple fact that if you’re not a tourist most cities are pretty boring. I have lived in Seattle, Chicago, and Phoenix over the last three years. All are remarkably different cities in theory, but when you’re just a resident life really isn’t much different between the three. Ya the restaurants and event locales are a bit different (and Phoenix has hiking), but they are all just normal-ass cities. Tourist draws are interesting because they tell the story of the city that residents don’t want to or need to hear. They also provide a fun exaggerated stereotype of the city culture and environment. Like if you come to Phoenix you 1000% should hike Camelback, visit Sonoran National Park, and see the Grand Canyon. A saguaro cactus may be super normal to a resident but to someone from New York they are among the most insane and beautiful plants you’ll ever see.
I got the giant goblets at LegoLand and drag them out every summer and the kids remember that and love remembering that.
Agreed on this take! I've lived in the same city my whole life. When people are gonna be tourists here they ask me my favorite places in the city. I'm like "I mostly just hang out at my buddy Tom's place? I'm not sure that's what you mean though."
The Grand Canyon is a great example of a tourist destination that is actually remarkable despite the hype. I've heard people scoff at the Grand Canyon as a tourist trap, but it's breathtaking! Legitimately one of the most incredible things you'll ever see.
THIS. If you aren't doing the tourist stuff in cities as a tourist, I'm really not sure what you're supposed to be doing. Attending underground raves? What is it people are anxious to do? Why would you come to NY and avoid Broadway shows? They're great, that's why they're popular, but more to the point, if you don't want to do that shit, spending the money on a trip to NYC isn't going to net you much.
I don't travel much, but I used to have that sort of "I don't want to be a tourist!" insistence when I did. I went to Ireland a few years back with my wife and I insisted we avoid tourist-y activities. So we spent a couple aimless and boring days just kinda wandering. I don't know what I expected -- did I think we'd walk into a pub and Bono would be sitting at the bar like "Wow, you're not like all the other tourists!"
Eventually my wife put her foot down and said we were going on a tourist-y bus tour. It was much better -- we saw some pretty/interesting sites, the driver had a good and well-honed routine, we talked to some other nice/pleasant tourists.
Not to be a library bore, but Seattle PL, Chicago PL (and many of its branches) are all worth a look. (well, am a library bore, sorry).
Don’t worry about being a library bore; I actually have Freddie’s book checked out via the Phoenix public library as we speak. Seattle is particularly nice because it has event passes - a library that can get me into the zoo is wonderful.
As we say in the biz--the ROI is huge for library cards. We spend your tax dollars for the best things. WYOMING has a great graphic: https://library.wyo.gov/libraries-offer-return-on-tax-dollars/#:~:text=Return%20on%20investment%20(ROI)%20studies,libraries%20are%20a%20wise%20investment.&text=In%20fact%2C%20the%20Library%20Research,5%20times%20the%20amount%20invested.
I think these are one of the best thing libraries do. We are "hooked up" with museums via U.S. Institute of Museums & Library Services so try to support each other.
I am so charmed by this depiction of your father that I am struggling to take away anything else at all from the essay, which is fine because the portrait of your father was more than enough. He sounds like an utterly delightful man, though probably rather difficult to live with. I re-read the opening paragraphs just to enjoy reading about him all over again.
https://fredrikdeboer.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Asian-Theater-Journal-Fredrik-deBoer.pdf
“Signaling to each other through the flames.” Thank you for sharing that. He really was a remarkable man.
He was a lot. He was an incredibly loving and gentle father. He was also a brutal drunk and an addict who was out of control for most of the time I shared the earth with him, which was especially unfortunate given that our mother had died when I was quite young. But he was a remarkable person and I wouldn't change anything.
What a great tribute by Kathy Foley, and a fantastic photo of your father.
Out of curiosity, do you recall your father ever interacting with the Japanese puppet theater Bunraku? It happens to be the East Asian puppet theater I know best. I've seen one traditional show, though it suffered some for me by not having a live translation, got to tour one theater and see the puppets, and seen one adaptation of the techniques using a Bunraku puppet of Moses doing a mix of biblical drama and modern comedy.
It's an interesting form, notable for the puppeteers appearing on stage in all black and the audience simply tuning them out. In my very limited experience, I found Kabuki to be more accessible on the whole, though for non-Japanese speakers I think the availability of translation would trump the form between the two. One other fun fact, the 47 Ronin / loyal retainers is perhaps one of the best known pieces of the form, huge action piece and apparently is the classic a theater will break out to ensure a big crowd when finances are troubled. I have no idea how many Ronin are ever on stage at once, but I'd love to see it some day.
What a lovely thing to say.
When I lived in “the city” It was very popular for residents to wear I heart NYC t-shirts. I would also often ask for directions as I was always mixing up my north, south, east and west and noticed that New Yorkers, before iPhones, loved giving directions. Not sure if it is the same now. Tourist-y stuff can be fun. I love Broadway musicals and some of those huge amazing pop culture shops in Time Square.
We still love giving directions!
My last 30 years were spent organizing and leading group tours of Europe and the Middle East. Inevitably someone had read the advice that the greatest faux pas was to dress and act like "a tourist." My response was exactly like Freddie's: "For G-d's sake, you are a tourist!"
"But the key phrase there is as a resident of New York. Saying that tourists should avoid it, or advising them to go through all of this rigmarole to appear to be some sort of vaguely more enlightened tourist, would seem to have a lot more to do with the kind of New Yorker the people giving this advice want to appear to be."
So I've also noticed this phenomenon, and to take it a step further - the people "I hate Times Squaring" the hardest are generally people who have lived here for only a few years and are trying to establish their "real New Yorker" credibility either with others or internally. I kinda sympathize with those people, even if they're just going through the motions.
I like Times Square, it's weird, there are no cars, you can people watch, it's always changing but always the same place. I used to work nearby and would often eat my lunch there. Also, Jimmy's Corner is one of the best bars in Manhattan and a great place to take tourists.
Yes it is generally a phenomenon of those who feel like they still have something to prove. Which is odd! Do you get mail here, pay taxes here? Congratulations, you "really" live here.
Jimmy's Corner is a treasure.
When I was backpacking like 15 years ago, one of the most common refrains was 'I'm not a tourist, I'm a traveller.' I still don't really know what that means, but the people who said it were invariably incredibly obnoxious.
A couple years back I stayed in a few backpackers' hostels again, and those same people were giving out business cards with their social media channels on them...
I have lived in Manhattan most of my adult life and go to Times Square often, primarily because my wife and I go to the theater a lot. I like it - it’s colorful and there are lots of people enjoying family time. There are also a couple decent huge movie theaters I’ve taken my kids to when movies weren’t playing by us and a few good bars and restaurants. With Broadway closed I’ve missed it quite a bit, and was happy to go back for the first time a couple weeks ago.
When I first visited New York, I did all of the most touristy things and loved every minute of it, especially Times Square. It's a genuine feast for the senses. I also took a bus tour around Manhattan, did the Top of the Rock tour, took the Staten Island ferry and rode the subway everywhere. I stayed in a hotel near Central Park so got to walk around there every morning. Anyone who'd deny themselves fun like that is being foolish.
Last time I went to NYC I hailed a cab and asked him to just drive me around to places he found interesting. The cabby nearly lost his mind that I didn't have a specific place I wanted to go to. I kept saying "I don't care how much it costs, I'll pay you, just drive me around. Take me to the park or whatever is a tourist place so I can see the city." He could not cope with that - couldn't cope with not having a specific destination to get to immediately.
It was such a weird experience. I couldn't understand why this guy didn't just drive around and let me pay him, but he was so uncomfortable that I ended up getting out after about 10 minutes.
I could not get out of that city fast enough. It vibrates as a frequency that I cannot tolerate.
A steady stream of short rides is most profitable. Plus NY has a lot of unspoken customs about how things work. People who deviate from these are looked on with suspicion. Sometimes for good reason.
Right. Like I said, I could not get out of that town fast enough. But I do find this comment very interesting in the context of the article.
I don't think his reaction is surprising at all. The guy has a job he does every day and tourist guide isn't that job - this isn't like asking a waiter what their favorite dessert on the menu is. He might not even like Manhattan or have any places he finds interesting.
I didn't ask him to be a guide. I literally just asked him to drive around, said I quite literally did not care, and I'm pretty sure driving around is his job. Crikey. This is exactly why I've never been inclined to go back.
Look, I don't think you broke some deep and important social rule here, there's probably some cabbie out there who is dying to give someone a tour of the city. But it really shouldn't be that hard to understand that someone who's entire job is to go from point A to point B in insane traffic gets stressed out when point B disappears and he's now responsible for someone else's entertainment.
Look. I think you're stretching by claiming that a cabby who drives in NYC traffic day in and day out suddenly lost his shit because of traffic. I don't understand the inclination to recast my story in some light that makes more sense. It didn't make sense. I offered to pay him to drive around NYC, presumably his job. I offered to pay him double when he started getting agitated, and that still didn't calm him down. I did not ask him to "entertain" me - I asked him to drive. And I got out when it was clearly something he didn't want to do.
My point, which only seems to be confirmed here, is that there is a mentality in NYC - some unspoken force driving people to move in ways that I don't understand - and it caused my cabby a weird level of stress even though I was offering to compensate him to drive.
All this to say, it's a weird place filled with weird people and it's not for me. And that's okay.
Okay, this can go on forever, so this is my last one. I don't think it's hard to understand why telling someone to 'just drive around Manhattan' would be weird and a bit stressful, even if someone spends their whole life driving around Manhattan. And I think pinning this all on some universal New Yorker mentality is too easy, and it's worth reflecting on:
a. If there's something meaningfully different between asking someone to cruise around Manhattan and just about anywhere else in America
b. If a lot of human beings across the world who do a certain job all day would be weirded out when you ask them to do something out of the ordinary
Most cabbies today are immigrants just trying to make a buck. They don't expect to interact with you much or to have to make any decisions. That's the context you were walking into and maybe one you weren't prepared for. It's substantially different than walking up to a random New Yorker doorman and asking for some fun things to do nearby - 9 times out of 10 they'd be considerably nicer and less neurotic than you would expect.
All of this stuff might just fall into the 'weird place with weird people' for you, but I think you can have more enjoyable trips in the future if you try to understand the context of the weird places with weird people.
> It vibrates as a frequency that I cannot tolerate.
I think one possible way to better understand why people that live or work here might react as your cabbie did is that being here for an extended time _requires_ you to (carefully) ignore almost everything – there's too much otherwise to possibly pay attention to.
But I think you're very right about the 'frequency' – I often have to 'modulate' my own frequency when I visit other places, e.g. walk slower, be more patient with other people walking slowly or making idle chit-chat, and making eye contact (or even greeting!) strangers on the street.
If memory serves, one of the ways NYC cabbies can get in real trouble is by driving tourists around on roundabout routes to their destinations to jack up their fares. I'm pretty sure that you have an absolute right to decide your route so as to avoid that. Possibly the guy thought you were going to scam him. Have him drive you around for an hour, and then, wherever you get dropped off, you could tell him you weren't paying, and if he tried to make you you'd have his medallion for trying to rip you off.
That makes sense – a regular car service (not Uber/Lyft/etc.) would have been the way to go for a private driving tour.
As an example of the negation of this, I've been to NYC four times - all for some reason - and have never done any of the touristy stuff. I think it sucks (except parts of Brooklyn). It's just a more crowded Philadelphia.
Now, I'm sure if I got to have your experience I would've loved it. That sounds like a lot of fun!
The distribution of 'sucks'/'doesn't suck' is very heterogenous, in all of the boroughs!
A lot of the touristy stuff in NY is great: Bronx Zoo, Yankee Stadium, Metropolitan Museum of Art, Central Park, Chinatown, Little Italy (in the Bronx), Guggenheim, walking the Brooklyn Bridge, the Cloisters, Grand Central Station, NY Public Library, etc etc etc
Go NYPL.
I just remembered the lions. People have to see the lions!
“ no white sneakers, ”
Ha! That’s all the NYU/Village kids wear now. So not only is the author a pretentious twat, they are old and out of touch to boot.
Yeah, that stood out to me too. I don't even know what that means. I lived in NY for 20 years and had white sneakers for at least some of them. Nobody ever commented.
First of all, shadow puppets are amazing and I love them.
Second, yes tourists should absolutely do tourist things that they can't do elsewhere. I live in New York and I always tell visitors to go to an observation deck (either Empire State or One World Trade) and to take a boat in the harbor (Governors Island, Liberty Island, hell even the Staten Island Ferry) to see views they won't see anywhere else. That point is the most important one, something you won't see anywhere else. That's why the one local specialty that matters is restaurant recommendations. When I go to Kansas City sure I'll go to Arthur Bryant's but I also want to know about the secret local spots because they have food I won't get anywhere else.
Third, the one place I diverge from you is the sidewalk thing. I used to live a block away from Times Square and it was very pleasant for the most part (so many trains go there!) The biggest problem with the tourists is that they don't know how to use the sidewalk. Which is to be expected, as many of them have little experience walking on sidewalks. I would tell them to treat it the same way you treat being in a car on the road: It's totally fine to want to stop to look at something, but you have to pull over. Do not stop in the middle of the sidewalk. That's my biggest out-of-towner peeve.
The Staten Island Ferry ride is massively underrated, particularly at night. I recommend that all the time too.
I've lived in New York for 5 years and a few months. My mother visits me every year from the suburban South, and she demands to go and see Times Square every year. She loves it, which I find pretty cute. I usually wind up in the area if I'm trying to see a show, personally.
In general, some of what you are describing feels to me as very specific to New York. For a certain group of people, especially those who moved here in their 20s, living here becomes something of an identity. The people I am describing become irrationally over-protective of the city, resistant to change, and frequently a little snobby. If you can't tell, I am also criticizing myself here.
I don't think this dynamic is necessarily exclusive to NYC, but of all the places I have lived, it feels the strongest here. Move to New York from the Midwest in 2016, and by 2018, you're acting like Fran Lebowitz.
So many of the New Yorkers who whine about tourists are themselves part of the crowds in Amsterdam, Barcelona, and Bali that are "ruining" those places. One of the other things I noticed after moving here from the Midwest was that all of my friends traveled all of the time, and there was a mild social expectation that people should be exploring new places and leaving the city as often as possible. This was a bitter irony because I was already spending more money to live here..
I agree that tourists should be tourists - that's the POINT - but I always thought that the advice to avoid Times Square was because it sucks.
I lived in Manhattan for just shy of 20 years; I live in the suburbs now and work in Times Square. It's kind of a daily nightmare, or was way back when I used to have to actually go to work to go to work. It isn't the tourists who bother me, though. Like Freddie, I've always found that New Yorkers mostly LIKE tourists. If you live in a place you're usually proud of it and want to show it off. And tourists are typically in a good mood! What's not to like?
It's the New Yorkers in Times Square that make me glad I don't have a gun. Every dick that blows pot smoke in my face or impatiently pushes ahead of me on the street because it's so much more important that they catch their train than it is that I catch mine really makes me yearn for the country. We didn't move nearly far enough away.
This post got away from me real fast
+1
I've only been to NYC once, and Times Square was the worst part of the whole trip. Do all the touristy stuff, but don't go to Times Square since it sucks.
I love this. And good lord, some of those “guides” made me vomit on my phone. It’s so embarrassing when Americans move to NYC and then sneer at everyone who doesn’t live there. NYC is a cool place, but you didn’t build it with your hands. You moved there. Congratulations. Get a life.
Your father sounds awesome. I can see where you got your dislike of pretentious gatekeepers. (Genetics)
I have a friend who grew up in Brooklyn. I was visiting him one day and I asked him "Why does everyone I meet in Manhattan act like they live at the center of the universe?" His reply was that if you were paying that much in rent, you'd need to convince yourself of that too.
I was amused by the sign about New York, “the greatest city in the world” in Hamilton. It very much wasn’t, particularly in the time contemporary to Hamilton. I guess it’s like how when any musicians or athletes play in New York they’re always like “I love you New York this is the greatest crowd in the world!”
Back in the early 2000s, I went to a Davis Cup tournament in my town (Winston-Salem). There was an insane amount of very-non-traditionally-tennis-like cheering, chanting, applause, etc. At the end Andy Roddick said it was literally the best crowd he’d ever played for. But I mean we’re no New York.
*song