>>elder Millennials were once defined as the “hipster” generation, Williamsburg residents swilling PBR at backyard parties where they listened to the latest indie darling.<<
Uh—NO. Just no.
GenX is the hipster generation. As warranted by the fact that GenX is characterized by its sense of irony, while Millennials are characterized by their…
>>elder Millennials were once defined as the “hipster” generation, Williamsburg residents swilling PBR at backyard parties where they listened to the latest indie darling.<<
Uh—NO. Just no.
GenX is the hipster generation. As warranted by the fact that GenX is characterized by its sense of irony, while Millennials are characterized by their stridence.
I honestly have NO idea what point you're making in the rant above though I always admire your rants for their sheer rantiness. 😀 But you seem to be anointing Millennials with an exceptionalism they just don't have. EVERY generation struggles with aging & paranoia about its own irrelevance in a consumer culture that's aggressively marketing youth culture. And, of course, these generational divisions—"Millennials,""GenX," "GenZ," "Boomers"—are a convenient marketing fiction.
First, GenX was not all about "Grunge" - that was one particular subset, demographic, and regional scene. But I think what was a common theme among GenXers was being really *passionate* about styles of music or film or whatever that seemed "authentic" and at least somewhat countercultural.
Second, peak hipsterism is definitely a GenX thing. The figures I can think of off the top of my head - Harmony Korine, Chloë Sevigny, the founders of Vice Magazine, Fred Armisen, and Carrie Brownstein - were all born between 1966 and 1974. Hipsterism included the oldest Millenials, but it was going out of fashion by 2010. (Albeit, "Portlandia", which made fun of that subculture, was a 2010s thing.) It was probably among Millenials where the transition from a culture of irony to one of moral earnestness took place. The poor kids in Gen Z probably have no idea that anything other than earnestness and stridency was ever the norm.
I would say you're thinking of the 'hipster' subset of Gen X, and not the whole cohort itself. I would easily argue those names you list there (I had to look two of them up before recognizing their faces or work) are not core Gen X at all, but rather the Seattle coffee-house wing of them. Sure the Pacific NW gets a lot of the cred for Gen X, (especially grunge, like you said) but it's by no means the least common denominator of the generation. I remember watching a few episodes of Portlandia and thinking to myself, "this would probably be funnier if I grew up along the Willamette."
I would argue that political apathy or general cynicism was a lot more core Gen X than being passionate about authentic or counterculture art ever was. Same with being individualistic, pragmatic, and drinking out of the garden hose. I mean, I grew up with a shit-ton of Xers who never got beyond the relatively benign creations of U2 and Van Halen. Like Grunge, hipsterism was a particular subset of Gen X.
"It was probably among Millenials where the transition from a culture of irony to one of moral earnestness took place. The poor kids in Gen Z probably have no idea that anything other than earnestness and stridency was ever the norm."
PNW? Except for Brownstein and Armisen, most of the folks that I listed were associated with the late 90s/2000s New York scene.
"I would argue that political apathy or general cynicism was a lot more core Gen X than being passionate about authentic or counterculture art ever was."
Clearly, that's a pretty limited subset of GenX that you're familiar with, then. I was born in 1966, so early GenX myself, and subcultures and niche interests were pretty strong (albeit, not universal) for people my age. The hardcore and post-hardcore punk and goth subcultures were largely a GenX phenomenon. Same for much of early hip-hop. If anything, it was during the 2000s and especially 2010s that I saw culture becoming a lot more homogenous, with the dominance of superhero movies and pop music, but maybe that's just me being to old to see what's going on under the surface during that era.
That's odd. Vice news never struck me as a Gen X thing, it always screamed Millennial to me. At any rate, okay - then 90's New York thing too. Those other two peeps (Korine, Sevigny) were both Xers though, they were just putting out material in the 90's when they were in their 20's. They still grew up in the 80's though, and that's how the generations are defined. Most of the 80's icons we think of were probably Boomers themselves, because they were in their 20's and 30's at the time. Madonna is a perfect example of this.
I would agree with you on your ideas about music subcultures and such, I think that is probably pretty obvious to see. I just don't think that music in general is this overwhelming part of generational culture that you seem to think it is. It's certainly an important piece, but it doesn't steer the ship any more than any other piece doesn't. It's a group effort.
I was born 9 years after you, so I'm on the latter end of the cohort. I think I can perhaps see how you feel subcultures and niche interests were strong growing up, for some reason that feels like a remnant of the 60's to me. Perhaps that 'revolutionary' spirit had already died down by the time I was born.
First off, I would say that the conventional generational definitions are off. Look at Gen Z: older Zoomers are much more like Millennials while their younger counterparts are newly enamored of Trump. Similarly I would say that younger X'ers are probably closer to Millennials.
Similarly if you're an older X'er your fashion choices probably tended towards flannel if you were into grunge. Hipsterism was a later phenomenon and, again, I would draw a line between the older Gen X cohort and the younger.
Well, first off, it's always best to remember the old Harold Rosenberg quote that "belonging to a generation is one of the lowest forms of solidarity." There are a great many things, both in terms of identity traits and ideology, that are more defining of an individual than what generation they belong to.
And that said, there are A LOT of problems with generational definitions, the most obvious of which is the fluid boundaries of what defines a generation - somebody born in 1963 will probably have more experiences in common with someone born in 1967 than in 1947, even though, technically, the 1963 birth year is "Boomer" and 1967 is "Gen X". Also the fact that defining these cohorts as coving 15 to 20 years of birth years throws together people of a really very different set of life experiences. Wikipedia defines Zoomers as born from 1997 to 2012, which is an age range of 12 to 27 years old. The older half of that demographic are the twentisomethings of today, but the younger ones are still teenagers and haven't made their mark yet.
In terms of young people being into Trump, from what I've read, that represents a huge gender divide in that generation. Even with earlier generations, women trend leftward, but according to surveys, among people in their 20s, the gender split in basic beliefs is pretty dramatic. So I suppose for Gen Z women (and self-defined gender-fluid types), the more-progressive-than-thou trend we saw among Millenials is only increasing, while for Gen X men, there's a stark shift to the right and toward antifeminism from what was typical of Millenial men.
Factoring into this is also that almost instinctual drive that all generations have to differentiate themselves from their parents' generation. If their parents are self-styled liberals, then by gum, _they're_ gonna go MAGA.
Like Slaw, I'm not sure I agree with your first premise. Xers weren't exactly hipsters, but they were definitely ironic.
Your second point is spot-on though. Every generation DOES go through this, since the beginning of time...or at least since the beginning of mass consumerism. It's not unique to Millennials at all. Although saying so is pretty damn Millennial!
Freddie posits that everyone liked Star Wars, but did they? I'd be willing to bet that people over 40 back then (Silent Gen and Greatest Gen) thought Star Wars was a bunch of silly laser nonsense devoid of a soul.
Disclaimer: I like Star Wars, was never bullied for it.
However.
I don't see a contradiction between Star Wars being massively successful and kids being bullied for liking it 30+ years ago. Bullies will attack whatever the kids they target seem vulnerable about. So if you're an earnest dork who would run around on the playground being Luke Skywalker or whoever, I can absolutely see bullies targeting that.
No, it won't because Star War sitself was the underdog, but that degree of earnestness about it might have been.
I think the difference is that in the late 70s/early 80s, Star Wars was just mainstream culture, with people who were really into it being kind of superfans rather than people who had a non-mainstream interest. I also remember that there was a strong Star Wars vs Star Trek rivelry in fandom - I'm not sure if that's still a thing today.
"Xers weren't exactly hipsters" I'd argue that Xers weren't any one thing. But as I outline in the above comment, the key figures in hipsterdom were definitely GenXers.
>>elder Millennials were once defined as the “hipster” generation, Williamsburg residents swilling PBR at backyard parties where they listened to the latest indie darling.<<
Uh—NO. Just no.
GenX is the hipster generation. As warranted by the fact that GenX is characterized by its sense of irony, while Millennials are characterized by their stridence.
I honestly have NO idea what point you're making in the rant above though I always admire your rants for their sheer rantiness. 😀 But you seem to be anointing Millennials with an exceptionalism they just don't have. EVERY generation struggles with aging & paranoia about its own irrelevance in a consumer culture that's aggressively marketing youth culture. And, of course, these generational divisions—"Millennials,""GenX," "GenZ," "Boomers"—are a convenient marketing fiction.
I think your timing is confused. Gen X was cynical slackers. Consider that their signature musical style was called "Grunge".
First, GenX was not all about "Grunge" - that was one particular subset, demographic, and regional scene. But I think what was a common theme among GenXers was being really *passionate* about styles of music or film or whatever that seemed "authentic" and at least somewhat countercultural.
Second, peak hipsterism is definitely a GenX thing. The figures I can think of off the top of my head - Harmony Korine, Chloë Sevigny, the founders of Vice Magazine, Fred Armisen, and Carrie Brownstein - were all born between 1966 and 1974. Hipsterism included the oldest Millenials, but it was going out of fashion by 2010. (Albeit, "Portlandia", which made fun of that subculture, was a 2010s thing.) It was probably among Millenials where the transition from a culture of irony to one of moral earnestness took place. The poor kids in Gen Z probably have no idea that anything other than earnestness and stridency was ever the norm.
I would say you're thinking of the 'hipster' subset of Gen X, and not the whole cohort itself. I would easily argue those names you list there (I had to look two of them up before recognizing their faces or work) are not core Gen X at all, but rather the Seattle coffee-house wing of them. Sure the Pacific NW gets a lot of the cred for Gen X, (especially grunge, like you said) but it's by no means the least common denominator of the generation. I remember watching a few episodes of Portlandia and thinking to myself, "this would probably be funnier if I grew up along the Willamette."
I would argue that political apathy or general cynicism was a lot more core Gen X than being passionate about authentic or counterculture art ever was. Same with being individualistic, pragmatic, and drinking out of the garden hose. I mean, I grew up with a shit-ton of Xers who never got beyond the relatively benign creations of U2 and Van Halen. Like Grunge, hipsterism was a particular subset of Gen X.
"It was probably among Millenials where the transition from a culture of irony to one of moral earnestness took place. The poor kids in Gen Z probably have no idea that anything other than earnestness and stridency was ever the norm."
I do agree with that part though!
WRT Gen Z: the pendulum always swings back.
PNW? Except for Brownstein and Armisen, most of the folks that I listed were associated with the late 90s/2000s New York scene.
"I would argue that political apathy or general cynicism was a lot more core Gen X than being passionate about authentic or counterculture art ever was."
Clearly, that's a pretty limited subset of GenX that you're familiar with, then. I was born in 1966, so early GenX myself, and subcultures and niche interests were pretty strong (albeit, not universal) for people my age. The hardcore and post-hardcore punk and goth subcultures were largely a GenX phenomenon. Same for much of early hip-hop. If anything, it was during the 2000s and especially 2010s that I saw culture becoming a lot more homogenous, with the dominance of superhero movies and pop music, but maybe that's just me being to old to see what's going on under the surface during that era.
That's odd. Vice news never struck me as a Gen X thing, it always screamed Millennial to me. At any rate, okay - then 90's New York thing too. Those other two peeps (Korine, Sevigny) were both Xers though, they were just putting out material in the 90's when they were in their 20's. They still grew up in the 80's though, and that's how the generations are defined. Most of the 80's icons we think of were probably Boomers themselves, because they were in their 20's and 30's at the time. Madonna is a perfect example of this.
I would agree with you on your ideas about music subcultures and such, I think that is probably pretty obvious to see. I just don't think that music in general is this overwhelming part of generational culture that you seem to think it is. It's certainly an important piece, but it doesn't steer the ship any more than any other piece doesn't. It's a group effort.
I was born 9 years after you, so I'm on the latter end of the cohort. I think I can perhaps see how you feel subcultures and niche interests were strong growing up, for some reason that feels like a remnant of the 60's to me. Perhaps that 'revolutionary' spirit had already died down by the time I was born.
First off, I would say that the conventional generational definitions are off. Look at Gen Z: older Zoomers are much more like Millennials while their younger counterparts are newly enamored of Trump. Similarly I would say that younger X'ers are probably closer to Millennials.
Similarly if you're an older X'er your fashion choices probably tended towards flannel if you were into grunge. Hipsterism was a later phenomenon and, again, I would draw a line between the older Gen X cohort and the younger.
Well, first off, it's always best to remember the old Harold Rosenberg quote that "belonging to a generation is one of the lowest forms of solidarity." There are a great many things, both in terms of identity traits and ideology, that are more defining of an individual than what generation they belong to.
And that said, there are A LOT of problems with generational definitions, the most obvious of which is the fluid boundaries of what defines a generation - somebody born in 1963 will probably have more experiences in common with someone born in 1967 than in 1947, even though, technically, the 1963 birth year is "Boomer" and 1967 is "Gen X". Also the fact that defining these cohorts as coving 15 to 20 years of birth years throws together people of a really very different set of life experiences. Wikipedia defines Zoomers as born from 1997 to 2012, which is an age range of 12 to 27 years old. The older half of that demographic are the twentisomethings of today, but the younger ones are still teenagers and haven't made their mark yet.
In terms of young people being into Trump, from what I've read, that represents a huge gender divide in that generation. Even with earlier generations, women trend leftward, but according to surveys, among people in their 20s, the gender split in basic beliefs is pretty dramatic. So I suppose for Gen Z women (and self-defined gender-fluid types), the more-progressive-than-thou trend we saw among Millenials is only increasing, while for Gen X men, there's a stark shift to the right and toward antifeminism from what was typical of Millenial men.
Yeah, I strongly suspect that each "generation" isn't consistently 15 or 20 years but rather fluctuates.
You are correct that the trend in conservatism in Zoomers is being driven by male voters.
https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/4125661-high-school-boys-are-trending-conservative/
Factoring into this is also that almost instinctual drive that all generations have to differentiate themselves from their parents' generation. If their parents are self-styled liberals, then by gum, _they're_ gonna go MAGA.
That pendulum keeps swinging.
Like Slaw, I'm not sure I agree with your first premise. Xers weren't exactly hipsters, but they were definitely ironic.
Your second point is spot-on though. Every generation DOES go through this, since the beginning of time...or at least since the beginning of mass consumerism. It's not unique to Millennials at all. Although saying so is pretty damn Millennial!
Freddie posits that everyone liked Star Wars, but did they? I'd be willing to bet that people over 40 back then (Silent Gen and Greatest Gen) thought Star Wars was a bunch of silly laser nonsense devoid of a soul.
Disclaimer: I like Star Wars, was never bullied for it.
However.
I don't see a contradiction between Star Wars being massively successful and kids being bullied for liking it 30+ years ago. Bullies will attack whatever the kids they target seem vulnerable about. So if you're an earnest dork who would run around on the playground being Luke Skywalker or whoever, I can absolutely see bullies targeting that.
No, it won't because Star War sitself was the underdog, but that degree of earnestness about it might have been.
I think the difference is that in the late 70s/early 80s, Star Wars was just mainstream culture, with people who were really into it being kind of superfans rather than people who had a non-mainstream interest. I also remember that there was a strong Star Wars vs Star Trek rivelry in fandom - I'm not sure if that's still a thing today.
"Xers weren't exactly hipsters" I'd argue that Xers weren't any one thing. But as I outline in the above comment, the key figures in hipsterdom were definitely GenXers.