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Razib Khan's avatar

i think the issue here is the prevalence of feelings over analysis. so you get incoherent responses like

1) putting ppl in prison is bad

2) ppl should be punished for bad things

i mean, some of the social justice ppl want to rehabilitate those who commit capital murder (and yes, this should be on the table imo), but also seem to totally want sexual harassment to be a black mark on someone forever.

one thing that comes to mind is that someone like jessica valenti is unlikely to ever be murdered due to her demographics, so murder is kind of an abstract crime. but she has almost certainly been subject to sexual harassment.

Lisa C's avatar

I'm a legal aid attorney, and prior to my current position my work was defending and supporting people on the sex offender registry in their attempts to reintegrate into society. There are few people as legally discriminated against as a sex offender registrant, no matter what their crime. There is almost no way for people on the sex offender registry to reintegrate into society given the discrimination in housing (in some CA counties, there's literally nowhere it's legal to live, and yet the process to transfer to a different county is impossible to complete) and employment, as well as all the "gotcha" parole and probation requirements. Progressives don't want to have a conversation about this. It's very frustrating, when this is an area of such profound injustice, of byzantine restrictions and unwinnable games that people can never get out of, that actively puts pressure on the homeless population and fails to actually stop recidivism in any meaningful way. In fact, it really just ensures that people on the sex offender registry go on to commit more crimes, mostly survival crimes.

My take on carceral politics is this: there's no way we're ever going to get zero crime. We should try our best to reduce the amount of crime in the world, but we shouldn't be thinking of legal sanctions when determining what a crime is; we should be thinking of actual traumatic impact on people and communities. If armed men and women broke into your house and shot your seven year-old daughter dead on the couch, that would be murder, right? If armed men took your teenage son, put him in a van, stripped him naked, anally searched him and held him in a windowless room for 48 hours, that would be kidnapping and sexual abuse, right? If armed men went through all your belongings, turned out your car and home, confiscated your cash, and then left it a big, damaged mess without giving you any money to clean it up, it would be vandalism and robbery, right? If armed men shot your dog, it would be a property crime, right? If you were held against your will and with no procedural rights in a state hospital where probation officers forced you to masturbate in front of them with nodes connected to your genitals, wouldn't that be sexual abuse?

These are all examples of the ways that abusive behavior is excused and justified so long as the people perpetrating it are police officers. If we're serious about reducing damage to individuals and communities, we need to curb these behaviors and understand that they're just as damaging as when they're committed by people without badges. There's no reason we should privilege law enforcement-committed violence over unsanctioned violence. So I'm fully for defunding the police, because I don't want my taxpayer dollars to go towards their violence, and I don't think the uptick in crime that may come from reduced police presence outweighs the reduction in police violence. It's not about forgiveness or all of us being sinners or anything; it's just about, imo, harm reduction.

I know this is a really radical stance that a lot of people won't follow on, and that's fine. There's gotta be some people on the far, far left who take a long time to think about their principles. I came to this point after a lot of staring the criminal justice system in the face, both as an attorney and as someone who was arrested during a bipolar episode and was beaten black and blue by the police.

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