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Feral Finster's avatar

1. Stupit question, but why is the New York Fed publishing articles on this? I don't see articles on interest rates and labor markets in JAMA. For that matter, why not get a doctor or two as co-authors?

2. Stupit question, but does the timing of this article have anything to do with Trump administration changes to involuntary hospitalization procedures?

Esther's avatar

I've been working nights in an ED and can only speak to our ED's procedures (I do medical interpreting and documentation, and go with one out of fifty doctors in the group while they see patients, ranging from aortic dissections brought in by helicopter to 'apparently intoxicated disruptions' brought in by police) but I will note:

1. In our group, doctors have full 'choice' over which patients they see, though they often delegate this to me, with guidance like "I want to see all the med clears", "I don't want to see any med clears", "try to just grab one every fifteen minutes until we clear the board", etc. Of the four doctors who have asked me to specifically take med clears (shorthand for any behavioral disturbance, psych or substance related), all have been older men. Of the two doctors who have specifically asked me to take no med clears or 'leave them to the other doc', both were fairly new attendings, women under 35, who explained that if it was them with a LEO insisting on being in the room with them vs. the older man on duty alone, they felt the patient would feel safer with just the older man and no police presence.

2. A lot - and I do mean the overwhelming majority - of the ~100 med clears I've been in the room for in the past year - have been 'frequent fliers' in some respect, who have devastating chronic mental health and substance abuse issues. Part of my job is pulling, reviewing, and pointing the docs towards prior records for formal records reviews on their parts. In many cases, these patients are brought in about once a week to once a month by the police for some street disruption; this is a state in which anyone acting oddly and carrying an empty bottle of vodka can be and frequently is brought to the ED for 'medical clearance' prior to legal consequences, for example, to prevent deadly alcohol withdrawal occurring in jail. While these patients have a track record of 'disturbances', they often do not meet the threshold for a behavioral hold vs. a substance hold (two different things in this state), as they deny explicit suicidal or homicidal ideology. A patient who frequently encounters and is brought in by the police is overwhelmingly likely to return, and also to experience escalating crises in the process of being picked up and deposited in the ED without a reasonable hope of outpatient follow up from week to week - patients tell the docs that they've lost their duffels, lost their meds, etc based on the abruptness with which they are brought in, cuffed - and because the ED visits are often for reasons that fall short of the current legal threshold for involuntary commitment, the docs are in the position of choosing one of the following:

- discharging the patient, who clearly needs care and often wants care, but no facility will take them under the assumption that they need an involuntary hold or will elope

- sitting down with the patient and talking about 'what you would need to say, and what would happen next' to get them a bed at this hospital's notably excellent inpatient psychiatric facility, but which requires an involuntary hold or private insurance to 'get in'.

- convincing them to go to detox, which will be much less helpful when the underlying problem is somewhat transparently psychiatric, but will at least afford them some guaranteed follow-up outside of the ED/recurrent police-enforced visits

- admitting them to the main hospital for '24/7 observation' and whatever more medical and less psychiatric avenue they can justify so that they can maintain the outpatient care the patient is already receiving, as in some really awful PPD cases with a very young baby involved, which is drastically more costly for the patient and takes an enormous amount of finagling to manage

- all while the aforementioned aortic dissection clings to life in the critical care unit and the other twelve patients with the doc's name on them may or may not have a PE.

This to say: there are often legal reasons behind both the visit to the ED and the DC afterwards that have nothing to do with the patient's likeliness to return. The LEO finds them a nuisance, and the doctor finds that they pose no actionable risk to themself or others in the immediate medical context and insist on going back home to walk their dog/to the motel because they have a job interview tomorrow/to the streets because all their stuff is there or their buddy knows how to find them that way. These patients tend to have very little patience for 'if you have even a little thought of hurting yourself, if you are drinking like this because you don't care about yourself or want to get hurt, if you tell me that, I can place a hold that will let you see a psychiatrist - I knew the man who's on right now in residency, he's very good - and if you tell them what meds you need, not just psych ones, they'll make sure you go back on your blood thinner', because fundamentally the ED visit is a police-enforced inconvenience to the patient. The best we can do in the ED in many of these cases is place a social work consult that involves pamphlet distribution and give a benzo and a turkey sandwich.

3. As to the underlying rationale: the patients who will say one thing to one doctor and another thing to another doctor have some predictable traits. They often don't have a 'known' psychiatric diagnosis - at most they will mention "I've been on these 72-hour holds before, but they've never told me what I have", have some kind of extenuating circumstance and really want to go home and are throwing stories at the wall to attempt to achieve that outcome, want to talk to one doctor but not the other for reasons like the doc's gender or affect or whether a police officer/public safety officer is in the room or not. There are a few docs I've worked with who I would say are "very good" at handling these sorts of cases, who will sit down and kill fifteen minutes talking with the patient until they can get past 'well, I guess they brought me here because I was rude to the officer outside the bar' to 'I was hoping he would kill me, I heard they do that sometimes'. The difficulty is of course that if the patient is an out-of-towner with no records in our system, or experiencing their first psychotic episode, it is very challenging to get an underlying picture of whether this was someone picking a fight due to stress/intoxication who should be medically cleared or a very mentally ill tourist picking a fight with the intention of suicide by cop who will come up with a more reliable way to harm herself tomorrow. The 'sicker' patient, here, by psychiatric standards, is the one drastically more likely to say one thing to Doctor A and a different thing to Doctor B. When that happens clinically, Doctor B is usually a psychiatrist called in for a consult, and Doctor A, the ED doc I work with, will overwhelmingly defer to Doctor B's assessment. Unfortunately it is fairly difficult to get a psychiatrist to come in and see a patient in the middle of the night, but when it happens, it is usually for an 'extreme' like this - a case that looks very unusual, for which there is very little background information about the patient's baseline mental health. It follows that these patients, for which a second opinion can be summoned from the call room, are usually sicker "than they look".

I broadly agree with you on your psych posts. The legal system, in these cases, as well as individual anti-psych attitudes, makes it substantially harder to get these patient's care, while uprooting them anyway. I think it would be hard for most anti-psych proponents to argue that it is drastically better to take a woman with bipolar disorder in the midst of an episode out of her home for hours while she "cools off" under the supervision of a police officer because her neighbors heard her yelling unintelligible things about being surveilled and then release her to the same context with no follow up care and a referral to a psychiatrist who will see her in two months than it is to get her immediate treatment of some sort. Her life has still been badly disrupted, her ability to trust the 'system' has still been badly shaken, she has still been handcuffed and confined and potentially harmed physically in the process - but with no resolution to her struggle other than 'droperidol seems to calm her down and she has insisted to everyone who has spoken to her that she's fine, with increasing agitation and suspicion, yes, but fine, and she needs to go home, she hasn't fed her cats and she has work tomorrow'.

I'm of the strong opinion that we need more resources specifically dedicated to emergency mental health evaluation, or just to more clearly delineate the ones we already have, because it strikes me as insane that this woman is competing with a septic child and a STEMI for the limited attention of an ED doc whose specialty is the septic child and the STEMI, and until such resources exist, papers like these will be wildly irresponsible as endeavors to discourage said ED doc from spending the time in the room necessary to find a pathway for the patient to get care.

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